Can you beat this?

[Flash Gordon]

A client emails me and says, "I love this work you did on this particular [ all flash ] website. I want you to redesign my site."

So I make a couple of different designs to show them. After several days of not liking any of my designs and 15-20 variations later we are talking on the phone and I ask them if they can see the circular motion at the top of their screen. They replied, "What motion?" I said, "The motion at the top of your screen." This goes several times and I finally realize THEY DONT HAVE FLASH PLAYER INSTALLED!

They wanted me to design a flash website for them, and saw an all flash website by me, and they don't have flash :rolleyes: Even more, they were just seeing backgrounds (with a little html) for 15-20 designs!

AHHHHHHHHHHH!

[colfaxrev]

I have a client that thinks it's ridiculous to have to refresh the web page if i make a change!

and my email used to have a '-' in it.

I told him the email and said use a dash or a hyphen, same thing.

he called back really pissed off saying that I'm avoiding doing his updates. I asked him calmly what he typed for my email and it sounded right, with the hyphen/dash and everything. then I asked him... wait, what did you use for a hyphen? and he said the dot with a comma underneath it.

HE DOESN'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DAMN DASH AND SEMI COLON!

[farafiro]

might be a variation of the flash versions, what is the version of flash player on your site and on the demo?

[Flash Gordon]

it was the same, FP 7.

[Flash Gordon]

Same client. I showed them 15 or so different variations of the design they wanted it based off of. They picked one. Now that I have completed the site, they want to change the design.

What would you do?

[CyanBlue]

Charge more... What else??? :)

[Flash Gordon]

Charge more... What else??? :)
Yeah....I guess. My contract kind of sucked and actually they never signed it and mail it back to me. So all I have to prove that we had a "verbal" contract is about 30 emails.

I'll let you know how it goes. These people are going to be the death of me. :(

[Flash Gordon]

Month into the project, have yet to been paid 1/2 upfront and the site is still not done...:(

[Cota]

If they havent paid, you arent working...simple.

[Flash Gordon]

Haven't touched the site for about a week and a half. They keep calling and emailing....I told them I'm not going to touch it again until I get some money.

Lesson learned: make a better contract.

[Cota]

Always have a strong contract...thats just unAmerican.

[Flash Gordon]

yeah...I kind of figured that people don't want to read a bunch of legal crap so I'll make it easy for them....Yeah....easy for them and now a pain in the arse for me. To top it off, they nevered signed and mailed (or emailed) back the contract that i did give them.

[Cota]

and you dont have to do the work...I sucks, cause you're in this business to make a living and have a loyal client base, but you deal with these idiots all the time.

[Flash Gordon]

In my position, I can't afford not to deal with them. No matter how painful it is, I need the money. I have just learned my lesson. Things will be different next time around.

[acolyte]

Hello Flash Gordon ,

uhh thats sad to hear . The same happened to me about 2-3 Years ago .
I was going to the Lawyer who told me the best you can do to prevend you from such happenings is writing a legal statement on your Webpage where it is clearly declared under what Conditions the Company Flash Gordon is working for clients and if a client gives you a contract he automatical assigns to your legalconditions written on your Webpage .

greets aco

[Flash Gordon]

Sounds like a good idea. But i'd hate to "scare" anyone and lose the client. Maybe I can have the legal webpage up, but not have a link to it on my main site.

I'll start working on something like that. Thanks for the idea!

[CyanBlue]

You are not scaring them off... You are telling them you are professional...
The bottom line is that you've got to put as much details as possible onto the paper and have the client sign it BEFORE you start working on it... ;)

[Flash Gordon]

Oh yes.....things are getting nasty now.

We live and we learn.

[oldnewbie]

Easy solution... Just put them on your IGNORE list, as you did with me!

[Cota]

oldnewbie...seriously...its getting old..you've made your point.

[Colin Campbell]

Sorry to hear Flash, but you shouldn't do any work for a client without first receiving the down payment. If you're sending them drafts and prototypes, they'll lay off paying you, seeing how far along you get.

Sometimes, you can't afford to be nice, literally. You don't owe them anything until they pay you upfront -- make sure they know that by not giving them drafts until they pay. The fact that you need the money is a weakness. They know you do this for a living and will exploit this to their advantage.

[apache13]

Every client I did not have a contract ended up a pain for one reason or another. I think if a client does not want to sign a contract it says a lot about how the project will go. I was like you not wanting to lose a potential customer - Looking back at the amount of work and frustration I put in actually cost me money.

I really like Colin Campbell comment about. "The fact that you need the money is a weakness. They know you do this for a living and will exploit this to their advantage" That is so true. Bottom line is that the client has no business knowing your financial status - Live and learn ;)

[Flash Gordon]

Yeah thanks for the input guys. I have learn more about business on this project than I have about Flash :(

I have done a lot of thinking about this project and here is a little bit about what I learn:

have a good contract signed by client. Contract needs to include stipulations about reworking "argeed to" sections
Set time limit for phone conversations. I have spent 10+ hours on the phone with these people
set a "timeout" claus. It has been over 5 weeks and I still don't have all the materials that they promised such as pictures.
Don't show them the work in progress. Think about it as a painting. You wouldn't stand over Bob Ross's shoulder and tell him to add more blue to his "Happy little clouds".
Don't give clients the opportunity to give too much input. They ask for stuff that isn't very web friendly (or even design friendly, like stupid color combinations).


The good news is I see and end in sight. The latest bad news was another missunderstanding. When clients say something, keep in mind they really don't say what they mean.

[Cota]

My contracts have time lines, for myself and the client as well. If they cant follow the time line then they default on the contract, which means I put the project aside until they get their act together. I will never turn my back on a client..only in extreme cases.

[Dylan Marvin]

Flash,
Even before you send a contract, and even before you do a single mock-up (which, if the client is big enough, you should be getting a buck or two for as well) send a NON-DISCLOSURE Agreement that has to be signed. They're standard in everything from Hollywood movie pitches to web design proposals. They are brief, non-threatening, and they are another tool designed to cover your butt. I would be happy to share mine with you if you need it (PM).
They are second in importance only to using an indemnification clause in your contracts.

[Flash Gordon]

Thanks Dylan, I'll PM you shortly.

Okay, new problem. So I "paid" this [Cota] guy to make a graphic for me, and he did a awesome job by sane peoples standards. Turns out, the clients hate it and want it chaged as well as the flash intro I made for them.

What is the best way to get out this project and not have to do the flash intro or redesign the picture to them, but still get some money for the html, flash, and video work I have done for them?

ARGH!!!!!

[colfaxrev]

The reason I keep on saying I hate flash is only because i have been screwed TOO much on being paid. That of course is my own fault for not getting signed contracts.

I have come to a new conclusion, I do NOT want to offer "packaged deals" anymore. No more will I say you get this and this for $1500. Which should be a week and a half of work, and they string that out to a month making stupid little changes and talking with me on the phone for hours making me pay for long distance in many cases. :mad:

My new deal is to offer only an hourly rate, like $25/hour, and give them an estimate on how much time i think it will take, but no guarantee. that way if they say, i'd rather have a completely different design. then THATS OKAY! because i'm making $25/hour :D ! Time is money, and therefore time is how I will bill!

One more thing, they have to pay me either weekly or bi-weekly. Right now, I only get paid a little upfront, and a big chunk upon completion. Doesn't work that great. If I am not paid for the week or two weeks that I worked, then the project gets put on the back burner until i have been paid up to that point.

Tell me if I'm missing anything!

Thanks! :)

[Flash Gordon]

I defintely do that next time. No more flat fee's for me...hopefully.