Forum Re-Structure - Your say [Archive]

Jesse

11-06-2006, 11:56 PM

OK boys and girls. It's that time again; time to restructure the forums to allow for new versions of ActionScript (v3) and Flash, and a few other things. As always we'd like your say in how it should go.

Now before the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it people" kick me, keep in mind that the current structure is good but doesn't cater for Flash 9 when it comes, and AS3 being part of it, etc. I'd like to get a head-start on that.

If you take a look at the top level index of the forums, I'm happy with everything from the General category, down. Open to suggestions for improvement (or additions) there though if people have them.

So let's begin with high level ideas for a forum break down. I was talking to Stephen (aka Tink) recently and he had what I thought was a great suggestion; a breakdown by ActionScript virtual machine.

Basically he suggested an AVM group with Flash 8 and lower, AS 2.0 and lower, and an AVM2 group with Flash 9, Flex 2, AS3, etc.

In theory I like it, but others know better than me how well it would work in practice I think.

I mean, we could just create a Flash 9 group and put AS3 under it, and be done with it... but then in 18 months we would have to make a Flash 10 group... Although we could merge Flash 8 and below at that time...

So this is where it becomes subjective. Post your opinions / ideas here.

Cota

11-07-2006, 01:10 AM

I like the idea of just adding a Flash 9/AS3 section...simply because a majority of the people that come here looking for help wont understand the AVM breakdown...or at least thats what I think, unless its broken down so that everyone understands it.

newblack

11-07-2006, 01:44 AM

I'd like to see:

ActionScript
-3
-2
-1

Flash
-9
-8
-6 & 7
-5 and below

Flex
-1.5
-2

and to reiterate, since you hijacked my thread... http://www.actionscript.org/forums/showthread.php3?t=121147

Cota

11-07-2006, 01:48 AM

I say add the game section

Flash Gordon

11-07-2006, 02:06 AM

I'd like to see:

ActionScript
-3
-2
-1

Flash
-9
-8
-6 & 7
-5 and below

Flex
-1.5
-2

and to reiterate, since you hijacked my thread... http://www.actionscript.org/forums/showthread.php3?t=121147

and keep the flash comm, server side, general chat, freelance, etc, of course.

Assertnfailure

11-07-2006, 02:12 AM

Is there really a need to seperate AS 1 and 2? Most of the time people would be inclined to ask the same questions in both...and I personally prefer to answer most of those questions with a quick AS 1 syntax response.

MichaelxxOA

11-07-2006, 02:32 AM

I agree with st33v about the Actionscript 1 & 2 thing, maybe we should combine them? I also agree with the Game forum. I'd also like to see the AVM idea that Tink had, although either way I don't see it mattering much.

We have to be careful not to through confusion into the familiarity that everyone is used to, but we also have to grow.

All of these ideas are things that can be changed as they go along, just because we try one way doesn't mean we have to stick with it.

Michael

newblack

11-07-2006, 02:55 AM

and keep the flash comm, server side, general chat, freelance, etc, of course.
yeah, i meant in general how i'd like to see language and software divided.

as far as AS1 and AS2 needing to be split- yeah i guess not. right now a huge percentage of the 'as2' posts are as1... it would be silly to attempt further categorization as they head toward eventual extinction. the only reason i like the idea of splitting them is so 'that's actually as1, see this forum instead' is a legitimate answer hence making the poster think why he's using as1 (hopefully with the realization that whatever tutorial he started with is REALLY out of date!).

CyanBlue

11-07-2006, 01:45 PM

I think there are always people who needs to stick with AS1 even next year and they will only get confused if they are getting mixed information on AS1 and AS2... and there always are people who will never touch AS3 even 3 years later... I'd say we keep AS1, AS2 and AS3 for that reason...

I also suggested for FlashLite section for the past few years, and I'd like to see that happening... and the games/physics forums as well... ;)

I'll be taking a business trip for the next couple of days, so I might not be able to have an access to the forum, but I hope we get good result out of this discussion... ;)

CyanBlue

11-07-2006, 03:34 PM

Oh, Flash Communication Server MX forum should be renamed as Flash Media Server... Hope I am not too picky... :D
I don't think this forum should be divided into the version numbers though... That's my ignorant 2 cents... ;)

senocular

11-07-2006, 04:00 PM

11-07-2006, 04:31 PM

and as per some one elses comments... maybe add a forum for handheld devices.... dont know how much action this will get, but who knows. also plan on changing things again next year.... with the tamarin thing going on in the mozilla csv, who knows what we may be needing in the future.

senocular

11-07-2006, 04:40 PM

...and there was that recent Adobe-Verizon thing:
http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/200604/040506Verizon.html

CyanBlue

11-07-2006, 04:50 PM

Yeah... I am not very apt to BREW but that opens up good ground for the US developers to jump in to the FlashLite market... Of course, there is big huddle on how we can actaully sell the product without going through the big guys, but that's another story... Yay for FlashLite forum... ;)

CDHBookingEdge

11-07-2006, 06:33 PM

Throws up an idea for another section (that I'm fully bracing myself to have thrown back in my face.) A kind of Software Development forum where discussions of the type focusing on best practices, coding constructs, development and such can go. Of course from an As(n), flash, flex, etc. outlook.

Just an idea,
Christopher

Assertnfailure

11-07-2006, 06:51 PM

I like newblack's setup and yes, I think there should be a separation between AS1 and 2, as CB pointed out. Though AS2 is AS1, people using AS1 probably know they don't *know* AS2 (and all that class brouhaha) so might get confused if there is no AS1 section.

That having been said... it seems that 99% of all posts seem to be focused on AS2.0 - so maybe more specific forums (like games) within the AS list might not be such a bad idea.

I like the separation of AS 1 and AS 2 in the sense that it might encourage AS 1 users to try to expand over to AS 2 (although if this degree of psychology is accurate, then combining AS 1 and AS 2 would encourage AS 2 users to expand to AS 3 ;)) I also feel that "outdated" technology should not recieve special praise to recieve its own section. For now though, AS 1 would be the only language I'd classify as outdated, but eventually as AS 3 becomes more standardized, you should consider merging AS 1 and AS 2.

However, I also know from personal experience that having more sections is not necessarily "better" for a forum. I would only do it if I felt a particular section was getting alot more traffic than people could keep up with. But I'll leave it up to the mods to decide if this is indeed the case.

As far as the confusion excuse, I don't think there would be any if the section was labeled something like "Actionscript 1 and 2"

Cota

11-07-2006, 08:21 PM

You'd be suprised how much people dont read when they come to a forum.

CyanBlue

11-10-2006, 01:30 PM

I also feel that "outdated" technology should not recieve special praise to recieve its own section. For now though, AS 1 would be the only language I'd classify as outdated
My 2 cents is that it is not our decision to classify what's outdated or not... Every language has its own places and some developers will be forced to stay with the AS1 even after 3 yeas because their clients are only allowed to use FP6, and you will be surprised to know how many schools or army bases have such equipment with no update capability...
And what you are saying sounds like I'd have to pack up and leave this place if I don't want to learn AS2 or AS3... :eek:

senocular

11-10-2006, 01:36 PM

I dont know if it matters or not, but whenever we write about AS now, its AS2 or AS3. We don't include AS1.

CDHBookingEdge

11-13-2006, 11:17 PM

ActionScript
N
3
2
1
Flash
N
9
8
MX
Etc.
Flex
N
2
1
General
Off Topic
Design/Development
Games
Mobile

There’s a lot of cross pollination there, but why have it. And on the reverse side if it is needed then it is. We are all presented with new concepts and we have to adapt to them and adopt them. The concept is that we can use a more finite granularity. The concept is to develop it for the users is it not?

What do the users want and what do they need? What can be provided to them and what can't?

Yes Cy, a very intelligent person from what I've read and such...has a problem grasping AS3. So be it, he chooses what he wants to look at. I choose what I want to look at.

It's a linked list, and even more than that a (n at least reasonably managed linked list) Yes there might be cross postings but those happen. The concept is to provide the underpinnings is it not? The concept is to provide what you have decided on as the goal, within reason and I don't think it's "what works out best for the mods".

You have neophytes such as myself that in some ways have a lot of unlearning to do, you have old hands that have dealt with flash possibly since flash 1. You have designers and developers. But you're providing for the user are you not?

I as a user, a simple user would present that as an idea and I would encourage more users to express their opinions as far as design. For othewhise we are just disembodied users as we quite possibly have made the individual users of our products.

Christopher

Again just a thought.

CyanBlue

11-14-2006, 01:37 PM

Thank you, Christopher... But I am not that intellignet... at least not yet...
Everybody has their own reason for using ActionScript and I, for one, am stuck with FP7 at least for 2~3 more years because that's what my clients use and I cannot force them to use newer FP... and that basically is one of the reason why I am stuck with AS1/AS2... and another reason is that I am not very happy with where Macromedia is going but that's another story...

The bottom line is that most of the Flash Developers will be hopping into the AS3 sooner or later, but we should not forget the fact that more than half of the Flash/ActionScript users are Designers who will probably have the most hardest time to grasp the AS2 or AS3... AS1 is probably the most easiest language that they can understand and make use of and we should spend the equal amount of effort to support them...

That's all I've got to say... ;)

Cota

11-14-2006, 08:58 PM

Allmy projects are AS 2.0, FP 7 or 8...and that wont change for at least another year or so. So I'm in agreement with CyanBlue....I think...though it could be dangerous.

CDHBookingEdge

11-22-2006, 10:06 PM

Just saw Cy's post to Ebad (here (http://www.actionscript.org/forums/showthread.php3?p=555268#post555268)) so that made me reflect back on this. If I remember it correctly most seemed to pretty much agree with the restructuring proposed by newblack. And it seems like the Games forum and the Flash Lite / Flash Enabled Device forums are widely wanted forums.

Just wondering what the status of this was.

Christopher

CDHBookingEdge

11-22-2006, 10:24 PM

Oh, and totally off this topic, Jesse are you ok? Last I read you were feeling sick. Are you feeling better? Is everything ok?

Just wondered,
Christopher

CDHBookingEdge

12-20-2006, 09:49 PM

Just wondering has any decision been made on this?

Assertnfailure

12-21-2006, 06:56 PM

I thought of a forum I'd like to see:

An OOP Conventions/Principles forum.

I see alot of topics in the AS 2 forum asking questions that range from very specific (how do i duplicate a movieclip) to very generalized (what's the best practice for building a class like [some class])

Personally, I'd prefer to sift through the generalized stuff.

CDHBookingEdge

12-21-2006, 07:26 PM

Yeah I agree with you on that. Kind of a general Best Practices kinda thing is what I was thinking but I kind of like your idea as well. A lot of people who have been in Flash seem to have a background in design and don't have a good grasp of certain development ideas (like OOP) and some of us from development in other areas have some quandries as far as how to approach it in the Flash/Flex perspective. I think it would help a lot.

Christopher

MichaelxxOA

12-21-2006, 07:46 PM

I couldn't agree with St33v more.

I'd like to see a 'Software Engineering' forum... where we can start talking about OO design, architecture, algorithms, etc... all of these things play HUGE factors in your applications, and there is pretty much not a single resource in which the topic is dedicated solely to Actionscript.

Michael

MichaelxxOA

12-21-2006, 08:01 PM

After just talking to Cota... I have decided that I should make it understood why I would like that particular forum.

While it is true that many of the topics that would be talked about in there are pretty advanced, there is still a crowd for it. Maybe we'd be tapping some advanced population of actionscript developers that have just not had a place to go.

If you think about it, there's nothing other than some kind of formal education that will move you truly out of the beginner/intermmediate level of software development. Even the books that are released all start from the beginning, and never quite make it to advanced topics. I fully understand why this is happening, but I don't understand why people aren't coming out with resources more appropriate for the advanced developer.

In the end I believe that the community (and the developers in it) will reflect the content we put out. If we start exposing everyone to some software engineering concepts, that may seem difficult, but only need time to be understood, we will see a higher level of quality in Flash work.

Anyway whatever you guys think.
Michael

CDHBookingEdge

12-21-2006, 10:03 PM

I wholeheartedly agree Michael but as can be seen from the times I've noted the need for it, you were preaching to the choir as far as me. ;-)

Well stated though.

newblack

12-21-2006, 11:39 PM

i agree too- give me my game forum and i'll be happy to teach st33v and mxxoa some oop

Cota

12-22-2006, 12:33 AM

I fully support the game forum, just not sure about the other stuff.

CyanBlue

12-22-2006, 03:13 AM

No FlashLite forum??? :(

Cota

12-22-2006, 03:52 AM

Ah yes, flash lite and game forum...supported.

Assertnfailure

12-22-2006, 05:46 AM

So if i wanted to ask a question about a design pattern or principle.......where would I ask that? The AS 2 forum? ugh...

Jesse

12-23-2006, 04:04 AM

OK so here's the plan for the final breakdown including (importantly) what will happen to existing forums which need to be merged, etc.

I'll give you all until after Xmas to comment, then action it.

ActionScript

3 - Current from Flex section
2 - Current
1 - Merged "Flash MX" and "Flash 4 and 5" forums.

Flash

9 - New
8 - Current "Flash 8 General Questions"
7 - Current "Flash MX 2004 General Questions"
6 - Ahh... ??
5 below - current "General Help" forum.

Flex

2 - Current Flex 2
1.5 and 1 - Current Flex 1

Software Engineering Principles and Practice - New
Flash Light / Portable Devices - new
Components - See question below.
JSFL - no change.
Projectors and CDs - May renamed to something like "Desktop Flash projects"
Apollo - See below
All others - no change

Outstanding questions:

What do we do about the Components forums? Merge them into one Components forum or keep them on a Flash versioned basis?
Do we need an Appolo forum?
Tutorial Support - Do we need keep these?

CyanBlue

12-23-2006, 04:14 AM

What do we do about the Components forums? Merge them into one Components forum or keep them on a Flash versioned basis?
I'd say separate by the version...
Do we need an Appolo forum?
I think we will sooner or later, so why not just create one when people are starting to talk about it...
Tutorial Support - Do we need keep these?
Well... Not sure about that... I don't see many threads which specifically asks about the tutorial... But I guess it's good to have and no need to delete(or merge) them...

'Flash Light' should be written as 'FlashLite'...

'Flash Communication Server MX' forum should be renamed to 'Flash Media Server'...

'Flash MX Remoting' forum could be renamed to 'Flash Remoting' to reduce the confusion where people might think that is for MX version...

Flash Gordon

12-23-2006, 04:38 AM

# 8 - Current "Flash 8 General Questions"
# 7 - Current "Flash MX 2004 General Questions"

There is very little specific to Flash 7 that isn't AS 2.0. I say drop that.

Also, remain "Flash 8 General Questions" to "Flash 8 Specific Questions" which would deal with stuff like the new flash.display, flash.geom, etc. instead of those going into a general AS 2.0 forum.

Just a though :)

CyanBlue

12-23-2006, 04:49 AM

Um... If I am new to the site and have a question on the flash.display or flash.geom, I'd post it to AS2 forum...

Or, am I missing something??? Oh, yeah... I'm supposed to be sleeping now...

Flash Gordon

12-23-2006, 05:29 AM

you know better than I.

Cota

12-23-2006, 06:31 AM

I'll have to agree with Cyanblue on this. I would also say merge the components section into 1 forum. Aside from that, I like the new structure.

Assertnfailure

12-24-2006, 12:41 AM

Yeah, as far as AS vs Flash forums go, it's hard to set it up in a way where there wouldn't be too much overlap.

BernzSed

01-05-2007, 06:07 AM

Well, here's my two cents:

When you divide up the forum, you divide up the community. Look at the flashkit.com forums. There's tons of categories and sub-categories there; they've even divided up the general chat into one for "professionals" and one for everybody else.

Now, they're all friendly and helpful enough, but when I was active there, I got the sense that they weren't very open to other's methods. Like with the scene issue that kept popping up; for some uses of Flash (like animation), scenes are a valuable tool that allow the creator to organize their Flash and test parts of them separately; however, since scenes have no value in web development, the web developers held the idea that scenes were useless in every and all cases.

So, in my opinion, if there's any overlap, combine the forums.

praufet

01-05-2007, 05:18 PM

I'd like to see the actionscript forums divided up into beginner/intermediate/advanced, or at least beginner/advanced. I get annoyed when my question about security issues or object oriented design gets buried by the 400th "whats the key code for enter"

CDHBookingEdge

01-08-2007, 09:02 PM

Agrees with Cota/Jesse/Cyan ;-)

hangalot

03-28-2007, 08:59 AM

just saw this post now :s
the avm breakdown is good me thinks. even in flex 1.5 when things got tough i used flash hacks all the time. and even in flex2 i still use sprite and little things like that which don't necesarely fit into the flex framework. this of course leaves apollo a bit out there as its not really an avm enviroment anymore :s but hell someone can fudge that.

dr_zeus

05-14-2007, 10:34 PM

I think it makes sense to group at the top level by ActionScript version (1/2, or 3).

One thing to consider is that the current ActionScript 3 forum under the Flex category constantly gets questions that are more Flex-related than AS3. For instance, the poster provides examples of his or her broken code that is completely in MXML. I think the name "Flex 2 Product Family" is confusing to some people, and they might think it has more to do with FDS or something.

In any case, we need a forum specifically for Flash CS3 because I feel it will soon become difficult to focus on Flex 2 vs Flash CS3 topics in the AS3 forum. Plus, AS3 currently appears in the Flex category, and its no longer Flex-only.

Jesse

05-16-2007, 12:21 AM

Just so everyone knows, I haven't forgotten this thread.

I'll probably be actioing the strcuture this weekend. It's quite a complex process with the forums having so many posts now, so expect some Forum downtime at the weekend while we backup and move things around. If you have suggestions for new forums, beyond what we have, please let us know.

dvlnblk

05-16-2007, 07:47 PM

Personally, I don't think it would be a good idea to have a Flash 8 and Flash 9/CS3 forum as well as AS2 and AS3 forums. I think that too many questions will overlap and thus not get addressed.

I also agree that AS1 and AS2 shoud be merged because almost everyone out there that is not doing AS3 is doing AS1/AS2 hybrid code. And, those of use that know AS2 will be able to answer the AS1 questions.

So IMHO, I think there should be these forums:

Flash 8 - AS1/AS2
Flash 9/CS3 - AS3
Flex 2 - AS3

As well as the other ones such as components, serverside scripting, etc.

Dvl