Who is the typical Flash gamer?

[tango88]

Who is the typical Flash gamer? Bored office people? Kids? Students? Maybe women are more into flash games than men... :confused:I'd love to hear everyone's opinions.

[bluemagica]

almost everyone....but basically teenage to office going adults comprises of the largest number!

[kkbbcute]

basically teenage to office going adults

Have to agree, don't hear of many grandpas and grandmas playing Flash games. ;) Most are just bored, but some others just play it so they can appreciate a good game, like me. (E.g. Games that are not in Flash, the best games can never be done in Flash due to performance issues, its a fact.)

[bluemagica]

the best games can never be done in Flash due to performance issues, its a fact.
On the contrary, the best and innovative game ideas are most of the time implemented in indie flash games first!

[tango88]

E.g. Games that are not in Flash, the best games can never be done in Flash due to performance issues, its a fact.)

That's a bold statement to make on a site for Flash developers!

Well, I spend an hour or so a day on the Xbox 360 and that's my favourite, but I really appreciate a good indie Flash game too (like my own, ;)) . For instance, yesterday I revisited orisinal.com and I was pretty impressed.

I think performance issues only come into it depending on the genre; aTetris game should work just fine for example.

[kkbbcute]

That's a bold statement to make on a site for Flash developers!

I think no current indie game has yet to beat the standard set by World of Goo, and the many other games in the Experimental gameplay project. Sadly, a tetris game can never match the innovation that we see on many modern C++ indie games. For example, good flash rpgs on flash are limited due to performance issues, and there is nothing we can do about it.

[bluemagica]

haha looks like a good fight is starting.... now where did i put my whistle???

Performance issues? We game programmers are meant to find ways around them, and push our and our programming environment's limits! When java first came out, even till this day, many people consider it a weak and slow language compared to c++! Yes, they are correct, but did people really use java to its full potential themselves? Have you yourself tried to use as3 to its full potential before claiming "the best games can never be done in flash" ?

A good game dosen't depend on graphics or eyecandy, it dosen't need strong physics or complex calculations, and it certainly doesn't need a powerful environment like c++ which you can hardly use to its maximum, it just needs a creative developer who knows how to use the resources at hand!

"True strength is not the amount of power you have, but how much of the power you can use"

[kkbbcute]

Woopee! Another random argument.

A simple fact, you don't bring a goldfish to a race between fishes. A goldfish is great at being an ornamental fish, but it can never be as fast as let's say, a marlin. The same thing with Flash, no matter how much you try to optimize the code and what not, it will never have the same potential for developing great innovative games and classics as C++.

The keyword here is talent. A stupid man can study hard and become smart, but a smart man who studies hard will become a genius.

[bluemagica]

lol you didn't get what i said! I am not saying flash is as powerful as c++, flash isn't even near that point yet! I am saying have you actually tried to make the best game in flash, before claiming "the best game can never be made in flash" ?

You cannot even utilise the resource that is available to you, so how are you claiming something like that?

Oh and on the sidenote, pong, tetris, etc, are waaayy more innovative than today's "best" games....

[kkbbcute]

lol you didn't get what i said! I am not saying flash is as powerful as c++, flash isn't even near that point yet! I am saying have you actually tried to make the best game in flash, before claiming "the best game can never be made in flash" ?

You cannot even utilise the resource that is available to you, so how are you claiming something like that?

Oh and on the sidenote, pong, tetris, etc, are waaayy more innovative than today's "best" games....

As I said, most innovative plus fun use of a simple concept = World of Goo

And I did try making the "World's best Flash game" 3 times over, and most of those games started lagging before I even got through 5% of the project even with all those things you do to improve performance like terrain tiling, etc. Things like smart AI, accurate pathfinding, even simple things like having a dynamic inventory system like most RPGs do taxes Flash a whole lot.

[EightySeven]

Isn't that where we wont our creative programmers?

I've worked with some people who have worked on AAA titles that were having performance issues in flash. But there are techniques to optimize flash's performance. As its was said again, some great concepts start in flash. Its a nice quick and easy platform to bang a prototype out in before taking it to the next level

[tango88]

I just wanted to share this, which I think sums up what Blumagica is trying to say:

http://xkcd.com/484/

[cjx3711]

This argument topic is going nowhere. What is the argument in the first place?

"the best games can never be done in Flash" quoted by kkbbcute.

How is the word "best" defined?
And when you say, "can never be done", you are referring to actionscript 2.0. AS3 is much more optimized and you should try that before making such a statement.

Granted, if you want to make a 3D game, flash is not the best option. Is the "best" game supposed to be in 3D?

Then again. There is also some truths in it. Flash doesn't have any power compared to C++. If any great game concept were to be made in flash, the programmer will eventually have to switch to a more powerful language to be able to further improve on the game.

This topic should have a focus before everyone starts sidetracking and before you know it, we may be arguing about politics. Are we arguing about the best game concepts or the best game on the whole? And how is the best game defined?

--------------

One more thing,
tango88: I can't see anything on the site you put "http://xkcd.com/484/" I only see a white screen.

[kkbbcute]

cjx3711: I'm referring to Flash in general, even AS3, seriously. Using AS3 will not allow you to create an exceptional piece, whether it is in AS2 or 3. The word best is defined in context to be the most fun and enjoyable to the gamer, because that is what games are made for in the first place, to be enjoyed.

This thread is sort of winding off topic, but it is an interesting discussion nonetheless.

tango88: I still don't get why the whole world is addicted to games like Maple, DOTA, and Dofus, which are definitely not (in my opinion) the best games ever made. How many Flash games can you name that tell an epic story in a believable world? How many Flash games have harnessed the pure intensity of online deathmatch (Pawn game is so not an online deathmatch)? How many Flash games have captured the magic of RTSes like the C&C and ...Craft series.

None I guess, point proven.

[EightySeven]

kkbbcute, I agree to a certain point..however I believe that there hasn't been games like that for flash because flash funding is very limited and the amount of time and money developers spend on C&C or Craft isn't available to the flash community. I could prove this with the right game and the appropriate funding, but unfortunately neither are available. I believe many would agree.

While Flash funding exists I'm quite frequently put on a 1 month or less schedule per game..if you gave me 1,000 talented people and the money i could make a Craft equivalent in a month =) Convincing my boss to go along is another story

[rrh]

While Flash funding exists I'm quite frequently put on a 1 month or less schedule per game..if you gave me 1,000 talented people and the money i could make a Craft equivalent in a month =)
Actually I doubt it. 100 talented people for 10 months, maybe. Organization overhead, you know.

Anyways, more in keeping with the "typical Flash gamer" question, Flash games typically don't need to be installed. The audience has an easy threshold to drop in or drop out of the game. That affects the types of games that get made as much as the technical limitations. (Which do exist.)

[cjx3711]

rrh: even though flash games do not need to be installed, you DO have to install the flash player. Not that it is a big issue, just wanted to bring that up.

kkbbcute: Granted, mmorpgs are not the best games around, but the reason why people are glued to these games are because of the social factor and not much of he gameplay factor. It is around the same reason why people like friendster and facebook and other social networks. Not saying I like any of those, In fact I think they are just a place for people to make fake friends and boast to their real friends how many "friends" they have.

And DOTA? well I would very much like to throughly insult that game, nay, game MOD. But I would not want to upset the many DOTA players. I will only say that people who play DOTA like to have a simple gameplay and not want to control so many people like in a real RTS where strategy is actually needed.

No offence to anyone who does play MMOs, DOTA and uses social networks. It's just my opinion.

Back to the topic, I think people who play online flash games consists of people who are bored and have nothing to do and need to burn some time. Maybe when they are waiting for a download to complete, they play a game online.

[kkbbcute]

EightySeven: I doubt spending any more money and time on Flash will produce better results, because Flash as you know is supposed to be for quick online deployment, not for huge elaborate games, as a result, it sacrifices performance for a small plugin and fast loading times, which is the issue here right now. (READ: performance)

cjx3711: I sort of agree, many people who play MMOs are just there to make friends and to socialize, because I don't think that grinding is all that fun anyway. And DOTA was seriously just made because people couldn't stand the "S" in RTS. The original Warcraft 3 was nice, with a balance between a traditional RTS and base building, DOTA threw away that last bit. When one of my friends who was a DOTA player tried to tell me that there was a whole lot of strategy involved in DOTA, he cited retreating when your health is low as an example.:p

Anyway on topic, most people who play online games just play it for a quick fix, so it is sort of unfair to directly compare the games that we are currently comparing with say Flash games.

[EightySeven]

I wasn't refering to a fullscale game in flash. I was referring to a popularity scale. flash games CAN be better but as it is not most of the games are garage games that lack the talent large companies acquire. this in most cases leads to sub-par design. Flash is fun in the way that u can strip down any game to its core elements and have fun.

[kkbbcute]

I wasn't refering to a fullscale game in flash. I was referring to a popularity scale. flash games CAN be better but as it is not most of the games are garage games that lack the talent large companies acquire. this in most cases leads to sub-par design. Flash is fun in the way that u can strip down any game to its core elements and have fun.

If Flash games are not full fledged and are simple as you say (only core elements...) then there should be lots of talent, as many people would know how to program those games, is that not right? Large companies with hundreds of members are not needed in this case, so why are we not seeing teams of well-funded small developers then?

[EightySeven]

Not true on the lots of talent point. A guy i work with thought it would be a totally awesome idea to make a scratch card game online...until l I got him to paper test it and he realized the game is only fun because its gambling and he could win money. There are alot of flash devs out there that think some things are super dope ideas and never really think about them.

Larger companies have entire teams dedicated to weeding out the really dumb ideas. Like EA Montreal has a research and development team who are given no set time frames or restrictions. their WHOLE job is to just think of new fun things. This is where Army of Two comes from. I enjoyed the agro system, my buddies enjoyed the aggro system..I believe it was like that for us because we go paint balling often and we use the agro system irl long before we used it in army of Two. Plus the comradry between the 2 main characters was entertaining and the anti-war undertones make the game appealing.

I on the other hand prefer to take ideas people enjoy and putting a spin to them. Or take situations in life that I have alot of fun with and then adding those aspects to a game. Unfortunately not everyone thinks the same and alot of flash games end up looking the same as every other flash game. they all have the same core elements with a different face lift.

Thats why I enjoy working with the team I'm working with now. The title we're working on right now is a basic game we've all played a hundred times, but the stuff we're adding to it later is what we're going for and the core concept of the studio is one I believe will have an impact on flash game industry. We're currently working an angle I still haven't seen anyone else attempt.

That is what I believe the Flash talent (that does exist) should be focusing on. Not making another tower defense title, but with forks that fling meat balls at spaghetti noodles. but making new content. Things we haven't seen before, things that haven't yet been done or tried.

I believe with he trends that are currently going will bored the flash gamers soon, "Ohh..another tower defense game, wonder if the tactics that work in every other tower d work in this one...*5 min elapse* yup they do" Flash gamers like they're games semi simple that they can pick up, play for a few mins and book ass when the boss/teacher walks down the hall.

I also believe that there aren't many small, well-funded developers because alot of the larger companies that would fund the flash devs don't view flash as a very lucrative market. I remember reading a quote from a guy at Rockstar saying that casual games are just a fad. Its thinking like that that hurt our industry

PS: I swear if I ever seen the spaghetti ball tower def game I'll grow another inch of forehead...I need the hair real estate gents!

PPS: Sorry for the skatter brain post I have alot of thoughts and feelings on this subject that are all trying to come out at once

[kkbbcute]

Erms, that is only because those people are gambling addicts, and haven't even tested their game on others for a fun factor yet, they don't represent talent, seriously.

And I agree that no one takes Flash gaming too seriously, simply because it has never been a proven platform for full fledged games. I have had enough of tower defense and stickmen games (fine, the latter is sometimes retardedly fun), and just in case you were wondering, talent is seriously plentiful, its just whether you know where to look for them, you don't have to be a game designer or anything to have a good idea for a game. You could ask a five year old kid what he would like to play, who knows? His spiffy imagination as a kid may lead to the next big hit. Conversely, large development teams somehow always seem to stick to the same old track, due to their large game budgets, and the need to make a profit.

All the industry needs is people who have ideas that are willing to risk it. You cannot just portray a few gamblers as an example of a lack of talent. That would be the fallacy of exclusion.

[cjx3711]

Ok, admittedly, there are quite a few programmers out there who program just for fun; these would be the kind of people we need to create the "best" flash game. They will not be bound by any company rules and they can just program in their free time. There will be no limits and no deadline to stick to. There are also people with great ideas out there which can be used in the flash game. Maybe someone's idea is good enough to be classified as the next best flash game? Who knows? The world is full of possibilities.

The problem lies in bringing these people together to form a team dedicated to create the best flash game. These people are scattered all over the world in different time zones, how are we going to bring them together? One way could be to use this forum. Maybe we should start a thread recruiting brainstromers and programmers to create the game?

We should just stop arguing about if flash is capable of creating the "best" flash game and just start doing it. I mean, I assume that most people in this forum are at least Actionscript programmers. Hence the site name. I am seriously contemplating the idea of recruitment. I wonder if I should start the thread...

[rrh]

cjx: You could always just bump this thread:
http://www.actionscript.org/forums/showthread.php3?t=138049

[cjx3711]

Oh sorry, I did not notice that thread, luckily I did not create a new one :)

[kkbbcute]

No one wants to fund, that's the problem, because like I said, Flash is not yet a proven platform. Maybe one day when a group of people are willing to devote a whole year into developing a game for no pay and little possibility of success, Flash could acttually become a major full fledged gaming platform.

[cjx3711]

Who in the right mind would want to fund something that would probably not be appreciated by 90% of the world's population and has no definite chance of success?
Just think about it, would you fund it? Even if you were a rich person, you would most likely donate large amounts to charity so that you can be famous.

[kkbbcute]

Who in the right mind would want to fund something that would probably not be appreciated by 90% of the world's population and has no definite chance of success?

No, which is my point that I've been trying to bring across, although you might be wrong about the part of level of appreciation. Most people appreciate, they just pirate your game.:rolleyes:

[EightySeven]

No one wants to fund, that's the problem, because like I said, Flash is not yet a proven platform. Maybe one day when a group of people are willing to devote a whole year into developing a game for no pay and little possibility of success, Flash could acttually become a major full fledged gaming platform.



On it! tho we have a plan to bring in SOME money while we develop the game :)

certainly wont be a triple A title but a full length game (SNES STYLE)

[cjx3711]

Even if the game does come out, you do realise that flash does not have the best piracy protection, right? It will be one of the most easily pirated games. Might as well distribute it free of charge.

[kkbbcute]

Even if the game does come out, you do realise that flash does not have the best piracy protection, right? It will be one of the most easily pirated games. Might as well distribute it free of charge.

Piracy is actually sort of good for the industry, it helps spreads games around and gives people a feel of a game before they buy it. Since a normal game costs like 40 or more USD, no one can possibly buy every single game that comes out. So in order to sieve out the best games, many people actually torrent them and only buy the best out of let's say ten.

Many industry leaders don't recognize this "Survival of the Fittest" and condemns piracy, which is sort of lame.

[EightySeven]

If you pirate a game, you don't then go out and buy it because u liked it.

[kkbbcute]

If you pirate a game, you don't then go out and buy it because u liked it.

Certain people do, not mentioning just in case people in blue suits comes around to nab those certain people.

But seriously, how would you know, unless you pirate games. Seriously, the guy from Positech Games, he did some research and found out that people pirate games because they are too expensive or have no gauge of the quality of the game, which is why established franchises tend to sell well, because people want to know what they are paying for.

Only about 10% actually pirate for the sake of pirating.

[cjx3711]

There is also some truth in that. Piracy in a way acts as an advertistment for the game. If it is hoghhly pirated, then more people would have seen it. Out of them, some will go out and buy the game. The game developer can actually look at piracy as a good thing. If it is highly pirated, it means many people like it. Of course, he dosen't get any profits. But this discussion was about developers making the 'best' flash game without expecting any profits.

[kkbbcute]

There is also some truth in that. Piracy in a way acts as an advertistment for the game. If it is hoghhly pirated, then more people would have seen it. Out of them, some will go out and buy the game. The game developer can actually look at piracy as a good thing. If it is highly pirated, it means many people like it. Of course, he dosen't get any profits. But this discussion was about developers making the 'best' flash game without expecting any profits.

No, this discussion was about an ordinary Flash gamer.:p (Where did that go?)

Anyway case in point, Crysis was terribly pirated, why? Because everyone was afraid that they couldn't run it. The Witcher was highly pirated, despite gathering great reviews, because people weren't sure of the game quality, as it wasn't an established franchise. Mirrors Edge was highly pirated, because people were afraid that the game's different gameplay style did not suit them. Every pirate has a reason for doing so, don't just look at pirates and say, they destroy the games industry, you can actually learn a lot about how to make a good game from pirates.

[cjx3711]

Well actually I meant that the discussion topic had moved to the topic about developers making the 'best' flash game without expecting any profits. Anyway, you make pirates sound so saintly and great. I think you should start saying some bad things. It makes you sound like a pirate yourself.

[kkbbcute]

Well actually I meant that the discussion topic had moved to the topic about developers making the 'best' flash game without expecting any profits. Anyway, you make pirates sound so saintly and great. I think you should start saying some bad things. It makes you sound like a pirate yourself.

It's not that pirates are saintly, its that they are misunderstood, like Islam, the infectivity of Cancer, the "fact" that China-made products are always tainted with poison, etc. And by the way, I'm not from China, or a Muslim, nor do I have cancer. :p Someone has to clear up misconceptions.

[cjx3711]

Almost makes it seem you are paid to do this. Clearing up misconseptions and stuff.

[kkbbcute]

I'm paid in units of satisfaction I get from clearing misconceptions. (Joking)

Anyway, lets not venture off topic.