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CyanBlue
03-27-2003, 11:50 PM
Have a look... This is the thread from the FlashMacromedia Yahoo Group regarding Macromedia Central... I think this will be useful information...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:16:46 -0400
To: "FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups. com" <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Creative Solutions New Media" <csnm@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Has anyone head anything about this?

http://www.macromedia.com/software/central/

Tim Winters
Manager, Creative Development
Sampling Technologies Incorporated (STI)
webmaster@samplingtechnologies.com
csnm@samplingtechnologies.com
W: 902 450 5500
C: 902 430 8498

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 12:20:45 -0500
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "F Scott Thomas" <sthomas@pharmedica.com>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
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There's more here:

http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/03/26/macromediacentral/

-f.

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:00:52 -0800
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "John Grden - Acme" <johng@acmewebworks.com>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
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nope, this is the first I've seen this. Sounds cool

John Grden
Flash Developer
www.zing.com
jgrden@zing.com

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 11:30:35 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: Brian Mays <bmays@connectok.com>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
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Is this a step toward working with the limitations of a web browser?
Rumors have flown for years about a Flash based browser.

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:03:45 -0400
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Creative Solutions New Media" <csnm@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I haven't read the whole white paper but the part that interested me
was...how did they phrase it..."Occasionally Connected Computing".

Perhaps this is also an entry into application development and not just web
application development. Which would be very nice.

Tim Winters
Manager, Creative Development
Sampling Technologies Incorporated (STI)
webmaster@samplingtechnologies.com
csnm@samplingtechnologies.com
W: 902 450 5500
C: 902 430 8498

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 18:12:15 -0000
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Rui Duarte Silva" <rui@mni.pt>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Looks great! I've already a couple of applications in my mind that would
fit right in there... Hope they approve me for beta-testing...

Rui

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:18:32 -0400
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Creative Solutions New Media" <csnm@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I really hope this means a more robust set of tools for storage of data on
the users machine.

Tim Winters
Manager, Creative Development
Sampling Technologies Incorporated (STI)
webmaster@samplingtechnologies.com
csnm@samplingtechnologies.com
W: 902 450 5500
C: 902 430 8498

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:30:57 -0500
To: FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com
From: Jason Miller <millerj@etcnj.com>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I assume it's pretty much the same thing as using a projector. I would
be anxious to see if some of the things we are forced to use 3rd party
projector tools are addressed in it...
jay

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:47:43 +0100
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Muzak" <p.ginneberge@pandora.be>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Don't get your hopes up:

<whitepaper>
All installed applications are contained within a secure environment, the same
as in the web browser, where they are not allowed direct access to the user's
hard disk or other applications running on the local computer. This enables
users to try a wide number of applications easily without fear of viruses or
other random mischief on their machines.
</whitepaper>

So, as far as I can tell, you won't be able to store data (e.g. write to disk).

I think however, that it will allow us to distribute screenweaver apps more
easily though, so that's a plus.
It's not quite clear what will be possible and what not... (at least not to me).
Guess we'll have to wait for more details.

regards,
Muzak

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:53:40 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "ryanm" <ryanm@dallas.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> I really hope this means a more robust set of tools for storage of
> data on the users machine.

Even better would be better XML handling, such as a native SOAP
interface. The ability to consume .NET web services would be nice. Room in
the object model to access external libraries, such as COM dlls, server side
controls, etc. What we need is more server-side control, without having to
use external files. An ADO implementation would be nice.

Now, I realize that all of these things can be done right now with the
proper server-side technologies, such as FCS and Remoting, but I'm talking
about native functionality within Flash itself.

ryanm

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:42:56 -0800
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Mike Chambers" <mchamber@macromedia.com>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It has an internal API for making SOAP based web service requests.

mike chambers

mesh@macromedia.com

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 12:48:05 -0800
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "John Grden - Acme" <johng@acmewebworks.com>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


OHHH don't tease me with you ADO talk!

John Grden
Flash Developer
www.zing.com
jgrden@zing.com

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:42:27 -0400
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Creative Solutions New Media" <csnm@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1 jigger Visual studio
1 jigger Flash

Shake and pour!!!!

Tim Winters
Manager, Creative Development
Sampling Technologies Incorporated (STI)
webmaster@samplingtechnologies.com
csnm@samplingtechnologies.com
W: 902 450 5500
C: 902 430 8498

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:57:13 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "ryanm" <ryanm@dallas.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's what I'm talking about! : )

ryanm

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:54:01 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "ryanm" <ryanm@dallas.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> OHHH don't tease me with you ADO talk!

Heh. Is anyone else here playing with Flash and .NET to see what kinds
of cool stuff is possible? I'm still learning C# and .NET, but so far from
what I've seen the .NET architecture really starts to blur the line between
client-side and server-side scripting. You have events that carry over from
client to server, for example, you can have server-side postback onClick
events for a button that go to the database and return data. Of course, this
isn't very useful for Flash right now, because you would lose state when the
page posts, but I think a similar architecture could be implemented inside
flash to make all of the server communication much easier and more seamless.
The use of user controls (.ascx files) is very cool, and could contain flash
files that pull all kinds of data from varied data sources (database, xml,
etc). Makes me wish I had spent the time to learn .NET when it first came
out.

ryanm

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:52:48 -0800
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "John Grden - Acme" <johng@acmewebworks.com>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


hehe, can anyone give it up for VIEWSTATE? Amen.

John Grden
Flash Developer
www.zing.com
jgrden@zing.com

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:56:11 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "ryanm" <ryanm@dallas.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> <whitepaper>
> All installed applications are contained within a secure environment, the
> same as in the web browser, where they are not allowed direct access to the
> user's hard disk or other applications running on the local computer. This
> enables users to try a wide number of applications easily without fear of
> viruses or other random mischief on their machines.
> </whitepaper>

That sucks. They should leave the sandbox model for the browser-based
swf files, and let exe's work on the desktop just like any other exe. I
mean, an exe is an exe is an exe, why do they need to constrain us with
flash exes?

ryanm

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:53:06 -0800
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "John Grden - Acme" <johng@acmewebworks.com>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


totaly agree

John Grden
Flash Developer
www.zing.com
jgrden@zing.com

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:43:48 -0800
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Mike Chambers" <mchamber@macromedia.com>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Here is some info from the KeyNote:

http://www.markme.com/mesh/archives/001978.cfm

mike chambers

mesh@macromedai.com

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:54:48 -0800
To: FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com
From: jdowdell@macromedia.com
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> They should leave the sandbox model for the browser-based swf files,
> and let exe's work on the desktop just like any other exe. I mean,
> an exe is an exe is an exe, why do they need to constrain us with
> flash exes?

Well, it sounds like you want an .EXE then.... ;-)

Standalone native-code applications are great. But you really have to trust
someone to let their code execute on your machine. The downloads are pretty
big too.

With document browsers, it's fun to jump to another page just by clicking a
link. But because you can visit anyone in the universe, you have to be very
careful about what a page can do to your system.

Macromedia Central walks between these two extremes. It's not a standalone
application, not a document browser... closest term I've seen is that it's
an "application browser". It's one-click to install, but lives on your
system, and it can remember stuff about you if you like. It's safer than
something which can manipulate your file system, so it's easier to try new
tools.

You can use Flash as a standalone application if you'd like. This Central
project offers something a little different, with its own novel advantages.

More here:
http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/jd_forum

jd

John Dowdell, Macromedia Developer Support, San Francisco
(Best to reply on-list, to avoid my mighty spam filters!)
Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/
Column: http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/
Technical daily diary: http://www.macromedia.com/go/blog_jd

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:03:20 -0800
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "RuneImp" <rune@imptech.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Read the whitepaper guys. It's good stuff.
Here's a rundown though:

* Intercommunication between applications created by different
developers via XML.
* "Central" environment to try/buy applications located in the
Macromedia Exchange.
* Integrated purchasing model for developers. Makes distributing
and selling your apps easier.
* URLCache - caches dynamic content (XML, JPEG, SWF, etc.) for
use offline. Part of that Occasionally Connected thing.
* Native Web Services - SOAP & WSDL protocols.
* Native REGULAR EXPRESSIONS - YEEEAAAAH BABY!
* Built in entity conversion support. %20 to space etc.
* SSL Support - HTTPS.
* Allows running of background tasks built with ActionScript
called Agents.

-=- RuneImp
ImpTech - Web Design & Hosting
http://imptech.net
rune@imptech.net

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 15:07:51 -0800
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "John Grden - Acme" <johng@acmewebworks.com>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
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REGULAR EXPRESSIONS??!?!?!?!

hehe - I had only dreamed it could be true.

John Grden
Flash Developer
www.zing.com
jgrden@zing.com

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:13:30 +0100
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Muzak" <p.ginneberge@pandora.be>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


One thing that came to mind is that the Central would allow me to distribute
applications built with screenweaver, but without the added Screenweaver
functionality (API stuff). So, kind of like a trimmed down version of the
full application.
This would allow one to try the application and if they'd like it, they could
get (or buy) the full application (the full screenweaver built version).

If that's what Central is about (or one of the possibilities) I look forward
to that :-)

regards,
Muzak

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:29:15 -0400
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Creative Solutions New Media" <csnm@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sometimes I wonder if MM has become too gun-shy in this area.

Sometimes I think hell is a sandbox.

Tim Winters
Manager, Creative Development
Sampling Technologies Incorporated (STI)
webmaster@samplingtechnologies.com
csnm@samplingtechnologies.com
W: 902 450 5500
C: 902 430 8498

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Billy T
03-28-2003, 12:34 AM
hmmm looks interesting

Thanks
boyzdynasty
03-28-2003, 01:14 AM
dag....i read half way.... to be continue for me....
CyanBlue
03-28-2003, 01:21 AM
Yup... Interesting stuff it is... ;)
Mortimer Jazz
03-28-2003, 01:35 AM
MM seem to be releasing an awful lot of new products lately.
I sure hope they're not overstretching themselves. Wouldn't want quality to slip
Billy T
03-28-2003, 01:37 AM
true - would be nice if they put a bit of effort into fixing all the mx bugs...
CyanBlue
03-28-2003, 01:51 AM
Amen...
Mortimer Jazz
03-28-2003, 01:52 AM
F4 was pretty much bug free. Admitedly it was much simpler than 5 or MX but it was still a major leap from F3.
F5 was a quantum leap from the previous version and only contained a few bugs but MX seems to have quite a few .. umm ... 'features'

Yours sincerely,
Negative Nancy ;)
Billy T
03-28-2003, 01:58 AM
macromedia are the only major software company I know that don't release minor updates to their software (other than the Flash player of course)

little bugs I can live with...constant crashing I can live with...but major things like the named anchors (which was one of the top ten new features!!) not working on mac browsers - that's just crap.
CyanBlue
03-28-2003, 01:16 PM
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:27:44 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "ryanm" <ryanm@dallas.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> It has an internal API for making SOAP based web service requests.

Unfortunately, it doesn't run on the desktop. When is a soap interface
going to make it into plain vanilla flash? I'm tired of parsing through the
stuff to find what I need.

ryanm

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:29:43 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "ryanm" <ryanm@dallas.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> Well, it sounds like you want an .EXE then.... ;-)

Exactly!

> Standalone native-code applications are great. But you really have to trust
> someone to let their code execute on your machine. The downloads are pretty
> big too.

What's the difference between a standalone app and a flash standalone?
They're all exe's, and people should think before they run them regardless
of the platform they were built on. I just think constraining us to a
sandbox in an exe is excessively paranoid.

ryanm

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 23:49:01 -0400
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Creative Solutions New Media" <csnm@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sing it Brother!!!!!

Tim Winters
Manager, Creative Development
Sampling Technologies Incorporated (STI)
webmaster@samplingtechnologies.com
csnm@samplingtechnologies.com
W: 902 450 5500
C: 902 430 8498

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:31:51 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "ryanm" <ryanm@dallas.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> One thing that came to mind is that the Central would allow me to distribute
> applications built with screenweaver, but without the added Screenweaver
> functionality (API stuff). So, kind of like a trimmed down version of the
> full application. This would allow one to try the application and if they'd
> like it, they could get (or buy) the full application (the full screenweaver
> built version).

I guess the real question is how come MM hasn't simply bought
Screenweaver and incorporated it into Flash? It's what we all seem to want,
and it would open whole new vertical markets for flash.

ryanm

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 04:56:34 +0100
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Muzak" <p.ginneberge@pandora.be>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, one anwser would be that MM already has Director.

And it works the other way around, Sceenweaver incorporates Flash, but I
think I know what you meant though :-)

Personally I'm quite happy with how things are and I don't mind using a tool
like Screenweaver for creating desktop applications.
Knowing what Screenweaver is capable of, incorporating such features into
Flash would/could easily lead to abuse. And with the Flash player being so
widely spread, that's not something I'd like to see.

regards,
Muzak

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 02:10:37 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "ryanm" <ryanm@dallas.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> Well, one anwser would be that MM already has Director.

Ah, yes... That old thing. : (

> Personally I'm quite happy with how things are and I don't mind using a
> tool like Screenweaver for creating desktop applications. Knowing what
> Screenweaver is capable of, incorporating such features into Flash would/
> could easily lead to abuse. And with the Flash player being so widely
> spread, that's not something I'd like to see.

It really has nothing to do with the install base of the player, because
ActiveX controls and NS plugs in the browser run in a sandbox anyway. It's
the limitations of the standalone that bother me. Of course anyone can make
a virus in about 3 minutes with a copy of delphi without even knowing what
they are doing. Hell, you can make a virus in notepad by simply changing the
extension to .vba or .js and emailing it to someone. At this point, if
people aren't checking their incoming mail for viruses and scanning the
files they download from the internet, they're probably already plagued by
viruses anyway. The potential for abuse is not a good reason to constrain
your developers to a sandbox and hold back powerful features from your
application. For example, the reason I learned VB all those years ago in the
first place was because Director was a huge steaming pile of crap that
didn't do what I wanted it to do. It never grew up. Even with a few new
features and stuff every couple years, it's still really a toy that's
capable of doing a few things well. Flash is growing up nicely, but in
comparison to other development environments, it's 30 years old and still
living at home with mom. We're rapidly approaching a decade of flash on the
web, and it's still widely regarded as a presentation tool, only slightly
better than powerpoint. If Macromedia ever wants to change that opinion
they're going to have to take a few chances and grant it some power so that
we can start doing serious application development with it.

My $0.02
ryanm

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 12:54:01 +0100
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Muzak" <p.ginneberge@pandora.be>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> It really has nothing to do with the install base of the player, because
> ActiveX controls and NS plugs in the browser run in a sandbox anyway. It's
> the limitations of the standalone that bother me.

Sandbox restrictions do not apply to standalone projectors.
Read the MM security whitepaper (if you haven't done so yet).
http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/mx/flash/whitepapers/security.pdf

<security whitepaper>
The sandbox restrictions do not apply to Macromedia Flash movies and
projectors loaded from the local file system, with the following exception:
A sandbox from a Flash movie that is not a local file, may not access a local
file's sandbox. For example, if movie1.swf on a user’s local disk load
movie2.swf from an HTTP server, the following is true:
• movie1.swf and movie2.swf are granted separate sandboxes.
• movie1.swf may access the contents of movie2.swf.
• movie2.swf is barred from accessing the contents of movie1.swf.
</security whitepaper>

> Flash is growing up nicely, but in
> comparison to other development environments, it's 30 years old and still
> living at home with mom. We're rapidly approaching a decade of flash on the
> web, and it's still widely regarded as a presentation tool, only slightly
> better than powerpoint. If Macromedia ever wants to change that opinion
> they're going to have to take a few chances and grant it some power so that
> we can start doing serious application development with it.

Get Screenweaver and you'll have all the power you ever wanted... seriously.
With screenweaver, it's not like you have to learn another tool. It's all (or
mostly) done through Actionscript.
And you can extend it through using COM components etc...

regards,
Muzak

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:19:45 +0100
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: Trond Åge Kvalø <trond.kvalo@atlantia.no>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> Get Screenweaver and you'll have all the power you ever wanted...
> seriously.
> With screenweaver, it's not like you have to learn another tool.
> It's all (or mostly) done through Actionscript.
> And you can extend it through using COM components etc...

Ok, just to relate it to my current problem. If I find/write a COM component
that communicates with the COM-port, can I then use Screenweaver to access
the data from that component?

If so, I'll have to take a closer look at screenweaver.

Best regards
Trond Kvalo
Senior developer
Atlantia as
Norway

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:32:50 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "ryanm" <ryanm@dallas.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> hehe, can anyone give it up for VIEWSTATE? Amen.

I do miss the simplicity of a recordset, though.

ryanm

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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:24:36 -0800
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "RuneImp" <rune@imptech.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, while I don't like the idea entirely of a sandbox
environment for Central as a developer I do understand
what there trying to do with security as a user.

It is no great shakes for a developer to run an
anti-virus scan on a application before running it after
download. Or have the ability to actually turn on the
ability to view file extensions and recognize that a
"myfav.mp3.pif" is actually a malicious virus or Trojan
instead of "myfav.mp3" with viewing file extensions turned
off. These sorts of things are far beyond the capabilities
or understanding of most users. They just want to do what
ever they want on a computer system without having to
understand the ramifications of there actions. In this
regard I fully understand Macromedias desire to create an
ultra safe environment for "users" not developers.
Remember users outnumber developers 100 to 1 (or more).

Though the inclusion of a facility to browse files (for
upload, etc.) and download files to the system does not
seem to me too much to ask for. Even if downloaded files
could only be deposited to the desktop or some other
predefined spot. This is completely different than the
ability to overwrite or append to any file on the system
and therefore should be relatively safe to implement. If
these things where added the sandbox format could have
real value for developers and users.

The sandbox thing for projectors is lame. Any programmer
could create a Trojan and make it look like a Flash
Projector. And any virus could infect a Projector and you
would never know it. There is absolutely no reason to
believe a Projector may be safe because any programmer
can imitate or modify a Projector. In the Central format
though there is value and relevance.

-=- RuneImp
ImpTech - Web Design & Hosting
http://imptech.net
rune@imptech.net

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 02:26:01 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "ryanm" <ryanm@dallas.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> understand the ramifications of there actions. In this
> regard I fully understand Macromedias desire to create an
> ultra safe environment for "users" not developers.
> Remember users outnumber developers 100 to 1 (or more).

Once upon a time there was a software company that had a novel idea.
They said "Let's make it as easy and convenient as possible for as many
people as possible to develop applications on our platform!" Can you guess
what happened? It became second the most popular development platform in the
history of the world, second only to *paper*, which it is catching up with
rapidly. Of course, no one wants to follow Microsoft's example, evil giant
that they are. (Smell that? That's sarcasm... ; )

> Though the inclusion of a facility to browse files (for
> upload, etc.) and download files to the system does not
> seem to me too much to ask for. Even if downloaded files
> could only be deposited to the desktop or some other
> predefined spot. This is completely different than the
> ability to overwrite or append to any file on the system
> and therefore should be relatively safe to implement. If
> these things where added the sandbox format could have
> real value for developers and users.

You can instantiate the FileSystemObject with JavaScript and create,
delete, or append to any files on the system at will. I don't see how making
it a little easier for Flash developers to do it without having to go
through an extra couple layers is going to cause any major problems.

> The sandbox thing for projectors is lame. Any programmer
> could create a Trojan and make it look like a Flash
> Projector. And any virus could infect a Projector and you
> would never know it. There is absolutely no reason to
> believe a Projector may be safe because any programmer
> can imitate or modify a Projector. In the Central format
> though there is value and relevance.

I just don't see the upside to yet another platform. Why not add the
"occasionally connected' caching ability and the SOAP interface to the Flash
standalone and let everyone take advantage of it? I guess I just don't see
the benefit of another limited platform when the existing platform hasn't
reached it's full potential yet. It's a nice idea, but wouldn't it be even
better to offer fully capable applications rather than little disconnected
web services?

ryanm

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 07:25:05 -0500
To: FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com
From: Kurt Dommermuth <kurt@dommermuth-1.com>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


First off, I know I suck because I haven't read the white paper (white
papers, just the name turns me off. they should call them purple papers),
but I have read this entire thread (which is way more fun and so I don't
suck as much as some).

Perhaps someone can clarify....

I recently purchased Northcode swf studio. From what I can gather, it
offers all that central offers without the restrictions. The downside is
that you can't create Mac executables. can you with Central? Will Central
offer more than SWF studio? Am I completely barking up the wrong tree by
comparing the two?

I have an old old version of screenweaver which was great for
screensavers. The way you folks are talking about it, it sounds like
screenweaver has evolved into something more. Does anyone out there have
screenweaver and northcode swf studio? Do they compete with one another or
are they complimentary?

does anyone else get freaked out when Macromedia (or anyone for that
matter) introduces new software? Rather than thinking "oh cool a new tool"
(sorry for all the rhyming, i can't help it), I think "oh crap, more to
learn to stay sharp and competitive".

I mean, coldfusion, flash remoting, C#, .NET.... jesus h christ, I don't
have time to learn all this crap. It creates a problem. Do you learn a
little about all of it, or specialize in a few? I guess I know the answer
to that for me. Just ramblin ramblin ramblin. I wish macromedia would
just wrap it all up in one piece of software. I know that would be
impossible but sure would be less intimidating. Some of these things have
to die, like in a darwinian sense. there just too much crap on the
market. I guess were just at the beginning.

btw - thanks Ryan (?) for the long tv education. It was consumed and
understanding was increased (a little).

Kurt

btw - if you have toddlers (infant - 4 or so) check out
http://www.kneebouncers.com
a friend (who has four toddlers!) and I put it together for our own clones.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:49:04 +0100
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Muzak" <p.ginneberge@pandora.be>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> I recently purchased Northcode swf studio. From what I can gather, it
> offers all that central offers without the restrictions. The downside is
> that you can't create Mac executables. can you with Central? Will Central
> offer more than SWF studio? Am I completely barking up the wrong tree by
> comparing the two?

Yeah, I think they are two different things.
Probably the confusion is because someone started using the term "Rich
Internet Applications" (RIA) and the word *Applications* might lead to think
"oh, software", which it isn't.
Even on the MM site it says:

<quote>
Find out more about this exciting new way to develop applications at the
Macromedia Central Product Center.
</quote>

I think a better term would be "services" instead of "applications".

> I have an old old version of screenweaver which was great for
> screensavers. The way you folks are talking about it, it sounds like
> screenweaver has evolved into something more. Does anyone out there have
> screenweaver and northcode swf studio? Do they compete with one another
> or are they complimentary?

The new and old screenweaver are different tools, by a different company.
Rubberduck (the guys from flashcomponents.net) has bought screenweaver a
while ago. They then developed a new version, which was supposed to be
called "Screenweaver MX" but they had to change the name (MM made them to).
Screenweaver is much more than just a screensaver tool. And yes, SWFStudio
is there competitor (along with Flash Studio http://www.multidmedia.com/)

> does anyone else get freaked out when Macromedia (or anyone for that
> matter) introduces new software? Rather than thinking "oh cool a new
> tool" (sorry for all the rhyming, i can't help it), I think "oh crap,
> more to learn to stay sharp and competitive".
>
> I mean, coldfusion, flash remoting, C#, .NET.... jesus h christ, I don't
> have time to learn all this crap. It creates a problem. Do you learn a
> little about all of it, or specialize in a few? I guess I know the answer
> to that for me. Just ramblin ramblin ramblin. I wish macromedia would
> just wrap it all up in one piece of software. I know that would be
> impossible but sure would be less intimidating. Some of these things have
> to die, like in a darwinian sense. there just too much crap on the
> market. I guess were just at the beginning.

I remember when all the MX software came out (in a very short period of time)
I hardly got any sleep and wanted to learn all of it...
So, yes, I kinda freaked out, but more because I thought *oh cool, a new tool*
instead of *crap, more to learn*.
I do try to learn a little about all of them, just so I know what it's about
and if I will be needing/using it in future. If I think I won't be really
needing it (for production, developing, clients, etc...) then I usually forget
about it and focus on what I will be needing.
If I later on have some spare time, I sometimes pick up things where I left
them.

regards,
Muzak

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 04:55:52 -0800
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "RuneImp" <rune@imptech.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SWF Studio and Screenweaver MX (very much updated from the
previous product and a direct competitor to SWF Studio)
are very different than Central. The 1st two are intended
to extend the capabilities of an SWF into a nice
application. Creating a super projector if you will.

Central does extend an SWF as I mentioned before

* Intercommunication between applications created by different
developers via XML.
* URLCache - caches dynamic content (XML, JPEG, SWF, etc.) for
use offline. Part of that Occasionally Connected thing.
* Native Web Services - SOAP & WSDL protocols.
* Native REGULAR EXPRESSIONS - YEEEAAAAH BABY!
* Built in entity conversion support. %20 to space etc.
* SSL Support - HTTPS.
* Allows running of background tasks built with ActionScript
called Agents.

But mainly is a "central" environment intended for users to
safely (major sandbox) and easily find, try and buy Flash
applications.

* "Central" environment to try/buy applications located in the
Macromedia Exchange.
* Integrated purchasing model for developers. Makes distributing
and selling your apps easier.

Central can or will run on Windows, Mac and devices such as PPC
(PocketPC), Pilot and phones.

I personally like when new things come out like this. It's only
more to learn if you intend to utilize it yourself. Otherwise
let someone else specialize in it. You can't learn everything
in the computer world, though I'm really trying... ;)
You just have to realize some things will probably never be part
of your skill set. I doubt I'll ever be an authority on IBM
mainframes or RS-2000s. Not that I'm really an authority on
anything but I think you get the idea... :)

-=- RuneImp
ImpTech - Web Design & Hosting
http://imptech.net
rune@imptech.net

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 08:13:15 -0500
To: FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com
From: Kurt Dommermuth <kurt@dommermuth-1.com>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


>* Native REGULAR EXPRESSIONS - YEEEAAAAH BABY!

I'm sorry. what are Regular Expressions? If you could explain I would
appreciate.

>* "Central" environment to try/buy applications located in the
> Macromedia Exchange.
>* Integrated purchasing model for developers. Makes distributing
> and selling your apps easier.

still seems like the swf studio offers many of these features. but it's
probably my lack of understanding.

>Central can or will run on Windows, Mac and devices such as PPC
>(PocketPC), Pilot and phones.

this, to me, it's strongest feature. Like Flash, the cross platform thing
is invaluable.

>I personally like when new things come out like this. It's only
>more to learn if you intend to utilize it yourself. Otherwise
>let someone else specialize in it. You can't learn everything
>in the computer world, though I'm really trying... ;)
>You just have to realize some things will probably never be part
>of your skill set. I doubt I'll ever be an authority on IBM
>mainframes or RS-2000s. Not that I'm really an authority on
>anything but I think you get the idea... :)

you and Muzak and Ryan and John all seem to have an incredible amount of
knowledge on this stuff and I"m sure one of you will say, oh yeah, I've
worked on mainframes. I'm jealous. i think I have a small brain. either
that, or is it my age? Can I blame my application/language fears on being
37 years old? It's seems like the younger you are, the more computer
science is a natural part of your mental make-up. You have a built in
understanding of computer logic. If you all tell me you're older than
me, I'll shoot myself. Or at least I'll beat my dog. So don't be
responsible for min-pin abuse.

Kurt

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 05:54:08 -0800
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "RuneImp" <rune@imptech.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Regular Expressions were (I think) introduced in PERL. It
is a formula mechanism for pattern matching within strings.
For example to find all words that have com you would use:

com+

This would find *com*pany, *com*plete and X-*Comm*. To
limit this to words that begin with com you would use

^com+

which would give you only *com*pany and *com*plete. This is
a very basic example and RegEx is VERY powerful and also
very fast in a system optimized for them.

SWF Studio does offer those things but not exactly. You
really need to read the whitepaper to understand it better.
Don't worry the white paper isn't very big.

Yes, cross-platform is niiice... ;)

Don't feel bad. It's all about what your into. Also helps
if you can really focus on things to the exclusion of
taking care of yourself like forgetting to eat. I remember
when I got my first computer (an AMD 386DX-40) I literally
didn't sleep that 1st week. I spent the entire time just
playing around in DOS 5. I think the only application I
might have had at the time was Wordstar 2000. This sort of
hacker disposition is why John, Ryan, Helen and I probably
all know as much as we do about computers. Weather you have
a degree or not the attitude makes a big difference. Muzak,
well I don't want to comment too much on them foreigners... ;)
Note that I do not know for certain if the others mentioned
have the same "eating disorder" I have. I've also gotten
much better over the years also. I always make sure I eat
at least twice between the time I get up and the next sun
rise. O:)

I'm 33 and fell in love with computers visiting my cousin
at age 14 seeing what he could do with a TRS-80 Model 3. All
right after War Games came out. So I'm not older than you,
be nice to the min-pin... ;)

Though I have met people much older than I who put me to
complete shame in computer knowledge. Note that people who
can program in machine language existed before the advent
of Assembler and C. We're talking painfully intimate
knowledge of computers here... ;D

-=- RuneImp
ImpTech - Web Design & Hosting
http://imptech.net
rune@imptech.net

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CyanBlue
03-29-2003, 03:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:24:06 -0500
To: FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com
From: Kurt Dommermuth <kurt@dommermuth-1.com>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thanks for the explanations on Regular Expressions (i still don't get why
this would be particularly powerful - not your fault - mine for not seeing
the possibilities) and thanks for the insight into your background.

I love my computer and geekiness of it too and some days it's all
consuming, but on a sunny spring day (like today) rebuilding a leaf rake to
last a life time seems to have more easily captured my attention.

Anyway, the min pin is safe for now.

:)

Kurt

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:28:44 -0500
To: "'FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com'" <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: Fortune Elkins <fortune_elkins@summithq.com>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


hiya!

>It would be nice to grab someone's product catalog and be
>able to browse through it and place an order whenever, and have it
>submitted the next time you connect.

this i think would be a great use, but what immediately "flashed" <ha!> into
my head was a great banking app - the "realer"-time check book.

now i can look at my statements on-line once every 2 or 3 days when the bank
updates them, and then i can save it as a file & import that into excel or
quicken to balance my checkbook, do my credit card stuff, pay bills, etc.

what if i had a flash app that automagically downloaded all my check book
stuff from the bank when i connected and did the import and balancing for
me? instead of having to go the bank site, save as, import, do quicken.

it could be all one thing, this flash checkbook, no brainer. and i could use
it to do my bills offline and it could connect to the bank and pay 'em when
i connect, so i don't have to sit at the slow-as-molasses bank site for 20
minutes. . .

also, what would be cool is mom, dad, kids all have PDAs/webphones and
whenever they enter an appointment it gets sent down to everyone's device so
people are automagically updated about changed soccer games, dentist appts.,
business meetings, etc. a better datebook! <Grin>

i bet there are a gazillion practical uses for this "flash for application
programmers."

just a thought,

f

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:38:16 +0100
To: FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com
From: "P. van Kemenade" <pike@kw.nl>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hi

> Thanks for the explanations on Regular Expressions (i still don't get why
> this would be particularly powerful - not your fault - mine for not seeing
> the possibilities)

trust us for it :) I once wrote 1 regular expression that rewrote
existing webpages into new, other webpages. It was extremely geeky
and quite useless, too :-)

cu
*pike

=========
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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:55:05 -0500
To: FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com
From: Kurt Dommermuth <kurt@dommermuth-1.com>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


oh, so basically it is something that allows for a kind of a customized
search and replace?

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 15:22:18 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "ryanm" <ryanm@dallas.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> Regular Expressions were (I think) introduced in PERL. It
> is a formula mechanism for pattern matching within strings.

They're older than that in concept, but the current versions of regexp
that are being used in modern languages are kind of based on the PERL version.

> which would give you only *com*pany and *com*plete. This is
> a very basic example and RegEx is VERY powerful and also
> very fast in a system optimized for them.

The example I like to use is for recognizing email addresses. This
regular expression:

^([a-zA-Z0-9_\-\.]+)@((\[[0-9]{1,3}\.[0-9]{1,3}\.[0-9]{1,3}\.)|(([a-zA-Z0-9\
-]+\.)+))([a-zA-Z]{2,4}|[0-9]{1,3})(\]?)$

...will find any character string that matches:

(letters, numbers, ., -, _, etc)@(letters, numbers, -, _, etc).(any 2-4
letter combination such as com, net, gov, us, tv, info, etc)

So using this regular expression I can tell if the text typed in a text
field is an email address or not. ECMA Script has an implementation of
regexp that is very similar to the PERL version, so you can actually use
regexp in JavaScript for validating email addresses and stuff.

> Don't feel bad. It's all about what your into. Also helps
> if you can really focus on things to the exclusion of
> taking care of yourself like forgetting to eat. I remember
> when I got my first computer (an AMD 386DX-40)

Bah... newbie! You missed out on the Trash-80, the C64, and the
wonderful days of DOS3 on a 286! Ooohh, and the *original* GUI operating
system, GEOS for the C64, which used a mouse and everything!

> didn't sleep that 1st week. I spent the entire time just
> playing around in DOS 5. I think the only application I
> might have had at the time was Wordstar 2000. This sort of
> hacker disposition is why John, Ryan, Helen and I probably
> all know as much as we do about computers. Weather you have
> a degree or not the attitude makes a big difference. Muzak,
> well I don't want to comment too much on them foreigners... ;)
> Note that I do not know for certain if the others mentioned
> have the same "eating disorder" I have. I've also gotten
> much better over the years also. I always make sure I eat
> at least twice between the time I get up and the next sun
> rise. O:)

You know what I've found helps with that? Kids. Now I have someone to
bring me Dr.Peppers and Doritos so that I can spend days at a time in front
of my computer without moving. ; )

> Though I have met people much older than I who put me to
> complete shame in computer knowledge. Note that people who
> can program in machine language existed before the advent
> of Assembler and C. We're talking painfully intimate
> knowledge of computers here... ;D

Ever taken a look at grc.com? Steve Gibson knows more about how
computers work than any human should. The story of the DDOS attack on his
website is a great read. He basically was ping flooded by armature hackers,
and he captured a copy of their trojan, read it in assembly and figured out
how it worked, built a clone of it that didn't do the malicious stuff but
simply watched and logged the activities of the hackers, inserted his copy
of the virus back into their ring where it propagated and replaced all their
copies with his "non-damaging" version of the virus, and built a full
diagram of the whole ring of kids, from the guy who wrote the trojan to
every wannabe who used it. He gained access to their private, invisible,
*password protected* chat rooms where they met and gave commands to their
trojans, and had names and home addresses of everyone in the ring. Then one
day he popped up in a private, hidden, passworded chat room where the two
guys who wrote the original trojan were talking about the new version of
their virus and said "You know why your virus won't compile? You have an
error on this line, and this line...", to which they replied "Who the hell
are you?" He said "I'm Steve, and one of your friends attacked my web site
with your virus, see to it that it doesn't happen again..." Needless to say,
there have been no more attacks on his site. Funny stuff, really. He hacked
the hackers with almost no effort, because he reads assembly for the fun of
it. This guy writes windowed apps in assembly, which is scary, scary stuff.

BTW, I'm 27, but I started playing with computers when I was about 9 or
10. The hacker attitude is apparent in kids from the start though. If you
ever took your parents VCR apart to see how it worked and then ended up with
extra parts left over when you put it back together, you may be a hacker.
: )

ryanm

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 15:29:39 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "ryanm" <ryanm@dallas.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> Sandbox restrictions do not apply to standalone projectors.

Not between projectors, but you still don't have access to the desktop.

> Get Screenweaver and you'll have all the power you ever wanted... seriously.
> With screenweaver, it's not like you have to learn another tool. It's all
> (or mostly) done through Actionscript.
> And you can extend it through using COM components etc...

Yeah, but why can't they simply build that functionality into Flash,
rather than making me go buy another product just to make Flash do what it
should do inherently?

ryanm

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:26:18 -0500
To: "'FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com'" <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: Fortune Elkins <fortune_elkins@summithq.com>
Subject: RE: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central? - OT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


>If you ever took your parents VCR apart to see how it worked and then
>ended up with extra parts left over when you put it back together, you
>may be a hacker.

ooh, ooh! i had a friend who was a physicist at los alamos. i went up to his
office there one day and they were all talking about how they had taken the
dishwasher apart as kids.

my friend admitted that he had taken the dishwasher apart at the age of 6,
but couldn't put it back together because he couldn't lift the door and hold
it in place by himself while he bolted it back on.

whereupon a colleague topped him with having done this at the age of 5 and
then being smart enough to get his 7 year old sister and 9 year old brother
to help him with the door by pointing out they would all get in trouble if
they didn't get it back together before mom came back upstairs from doing
the laundry.

so vcr destruction = hacker, dishwasher makes you rocket scientst, radio
disasembly makes you what? <Grin>

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 15:52:18 -0600
To: <FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com>
From: "ryanm" <ryanm@dallas.net>
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central? - OT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A HAM nerd. ; )

When I was about 7 or 8 my Dad and I took a piano apart to refinish it
and we ended up with parts left over, so I guess I know where I got it.

ryanm

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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:57:02 -0800
To: FLASHmacromedia@yahoogroups.com
From: jdowdell@macromedia.com
Subject: Re: [FLASHmacromedia] Macromedia Central?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> It's the limitations of the standalone that bother me.

A default Flash Projector is just a simple shell around the web player.
Lots of people make Visual Basic or other platform-specific shells that
call up the Macromedia Flash Player as an Active X Control, and these can
do whatever disk access they want. Director can do tons more besides
including Flash, and is also extensible, cross-platform. You can do lots
with standalones already.

What Central offers is something different. It's a way to combine the safe
fast loading of web pages with the persistence and durability of a
standalone application. You can't manipulate the file system like you could
with the Windows API, but then you don't have to download entire app,
decompress them, analyze them for known trojans, install them... just
one-click install, like a browser.

> The potential for abuse is not a good reason to constrain
> your developers to a sandbox and hold back powerful features
> from your application.

Just because you don't use email for spam, doesn't mean that other people
won't. Think about why a browser doesn't let pages make system-level calls.
Sometimes you feel you can trust someone's code, and that's when you'd
install an application. But when you're just surfing around casually you
don't grant the same permissions.

> You can instantiate the FileSystemObject with JavaScript and create,
> delete, or append to any files on the system at will.

That's with that Windows Scripting Host that they offered for awhile,
right? Does anyone still have that installed, after the first few security
breaches?

Microsoft also opened their email reader to incoming JavaScript. Total
insanity... lots of people suffered, and it was pulled back.

Key concept: It's my machine. I control it. Strangers out there don't tell
my machine what to do. They can tell their own machines what to do, not
mine. That's the way of the world.

jd

John Dowdell, Macromedia Developer Support, San Francisco
(Best to reply on-list, to avoid my mighty spam filters!)
Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/
Column: http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/
Technical daily diary: http://www.macromedia.com/go/blog_jd

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m324vbg
08-01-2003, 02:24 PM
There's a sneak peek of the latest Beta of Central here: http://www.oddhammer.com/blog.htm that shows how the user interface of Central has changed since it was announced.
tg
08-01-2003, 04:20 PM
cyanblue, i love the info you give to this forum. i love all the great help you give everyone here.
i would love it if you would just supply a link to the forum your getting this info from instead of the whole damn thread.

or at least edit out all the header/footer crap that we don't need to see.

hehheh. cheers.
CyanBlue
08-01-2003, 09:05 PM
Hehe... I just happened to be subscribing that Yahoo group, and happened to scrap what's going on in that group ever since I joined that group... I do have them all in the text files after some editing... Mainly that started as my own archive, and lots of times, I search through those files whenever I need to refresh my brain...

Yeah... The link would be good one to provide, but this discussion... I thought that I'd share this because I thought that this was something we all should know about, and if I were to give out the link, it would have been a disaster... So, I thought that I'd just share what I have and whoever is interested on this subject would be able to read through this discusstion... That's all I intended... ;)

Um... I am not sure if I am writing what I was going to say or not... I had big dinner a while ago, and I am too sleepy to think... :)