3rd of americans surveyed believe WMD found in Iraq [Archive]

spriggan

06-18-2003, 12:37 PM

Wow I'm defantly a minority here. I think there are weapons there and the US will find them. And I like G.W.Bush. An intresting side note is that current polls show that the Majority of Americans don't care if we find WMD's in Iraq. The mear fact that Sadam killed thousands of his own people is enough for a lot of us. I beleave that Bush and Blair should have sold that instead of WMD's but it wouldn't have changed the countries minds that opposed us. However Since we were promised WMD's I beleave they need to be found and if they're not then the opproate actions need to be taken. But ask yourselfs this if Bush and Blair new there were no weapons why would they lie? They would have to know there would be no way of covering up the lie afterwords, not with todays mass media and technology. As for Sadam and 911 I can't think of an instance where the Bush adminstration said for certain that Sadam had a part in it, just that Sadam and Al-quaida (or however you spell it) have been in contact. Several Al-Qualia prisnors have recently said that there were plans to work with him on things but Bin-Laden nixed the plans.

linckx

06-18-2003, 12:41 PM

But ask yourselfs this if Bush and Blair new there were no weapons why would they lie?

a cover up to rectify that they're going to kill saddam?
if secret services would interfere, it would cause more fuss...
so they played it open book without revealing their real cards...

lots of media out there, lots of media to be deceived

robin

spriggan

06-18-2003, 12:45 PM

Your seriously underestamateing the intellect of people everywere. If you honestly beleave that people will beleave anyhting they hear without thinking and not care if they were lied to then there's no reasoing with you.

linckx

06-18-2003, 12:50 PM

no need to get angry ;)

I'm just 'brainstorming', giving some thoughts, doesn't necessarily need to be mine.

and I am not underestimating the intellect of people everywhere.
But if I had the tape, I'd send it to you: we saw on our national television the difference between what americans and europeans get to see on the news: you'll see why people think different on things.

we are probably as influenced as you guys, only in another direction.

I also saw a reportage on bush'es election campaign... I must admit there wasn't much reason to get annoyed with him... He looked like a really nice guy, even when he didn't know they were filming ;)

robin

spriggan

06-18-2003, 12:57 PM

I wasn't mad, just empasising a point. Actualy if you're tossing around ideas I'll throw in another one that is quite intresting. I'll have to find the article later since I'm realy tired and about to goto bed. But there was an editoral in a major us paper that was talking about how the US wanted to show the muslams world that we were willing to take action. It made a reference that Bin-ladin, like Hittler, figured that the US being a rich country that is relativly comfortable in their position in the world wouldn't risk anything to attack. And that the US wanted to show the countries that we aren't takeing crap anymore. And the WMD argument was the most solid one they had for attacking. I would have figured that Afganistan would have done that, but it's intresting none the less.

linckx

06-18-2003, 01:00 PM

yup, indeed an interesting idea,
and given the thought, the time was right, none of the 'g8' countries had a war going or whatsoever, so there was full attention of all of them, and cooperation of some of them...

but what I do find really stupid are those things like changing the name french fries into freedom fries... do they still do that?

robin

spriggan

06-18-2003, 01:05 PM

unfortualy yes. That's defantly the most ridiculas thing going on at the moment. Chraic may be a slimeball (sorry but the guy had a picture of ol' Sadam on/near his desk, I have to question his motives as being more then make love not war) but that's just too much. But on the same note, here in the US we don't call Braughtwurtz (I can't spell right now) that anymore becasue of WW2.

Sualdam

06-18-2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by spriggan
Wow I'm defantly a minority here. I think there are weapons there and the US will find them.

This whole subject is tricky and whatever your opinion, you're likely to step on someone's toes if you air it.

Before the war I tried not to have an opinion about it - mainly because the whole situation was crammed with contradictions.

I mean, starting a war is wrong, but so is terrorism. There is no way you can even begin to defend terrorist murders, nor can you defend wartime accidental civilian deaths. Problem is, in this world of ours both happen.

Once the war started - and because I don't have anything against George Bush or Americans - I secretly hoped they'd find piles of bioweapons and nerve agents in Iraq. The reason for this was simply that GWB and the USA had made a decision, supported by the UK, and I wanted it to be the right decision - if it wasn't, then things were likely to be worse in the world after the war than they were before it.

So, we are waiting...

McGiver

06-18-2003, 01:13 PM

i agree with you, that saddam killed many people, and he had to be stopped, but the thing I cant accept, is bush & co did it!
they lied about nearly everything.
Do you really think some pipes are an evidence of the developement of nukes?
do you really think bush won the elections? (doesn't fit here, but I think it can't be shown often enough)
do you really think freeing the Iraqi people was the main reason of this war (and why did the usa support such a regime if it's only aim is to free people)?

and when we discuss this once:
do you think there are no worse dictators in the world:
how about Burma, or China, or most of the african and asian counries?
And what ado you think about protecting nature?
Why do you think all other countries in the world save gas (in germany we pay more tha 1euro /l gas) or try to reduce the CO2 output? that us cars still need 20 l for 100 kilometers?
The Koyoto protocol (some internacial rules concerning the co2 output) has been signed by 178 countries. the 2 who did not sign it: The United States of America & People's Republic of China!
What do you think of the campaign agains France? Boycotting someone who sais: lets proof where the weapons of mass distraction are, before bombing the country!? this has nothing to do with cowardice if you do not want to support a war, which is apparent a try to save Oil sources, get rid of old (radioactive) ammunition, and getting new economic projects for the own industry,... whatever not with the main aim to free the iraqi people!

linckx

06-18-2003, 01:13 PM

weird...

it's bratwurst ;)

didn't know that from chirac... but I do know that half of france dislikes him too...

a while ago there were elections, and they had to choose between him or a guy from extremic right...

whole france had demonstrations against the right guy, with slogands like

vote le bandit, pas le nazi
freely translated that is
vote for the thief, not the nazi!

:D

robin

linckx

06-18-2003, 01:16 PM

wow mcGiver, what a rush of facts...

I don't agree with all of them, but when put a little less direct there certainly can be found some truth in them...

robin

Sualdam

06-18-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by spriggan
Chraic may be a slimeball (sorry but the guy had a picture of ol' Sadam on/near his desk

You see, this is potentially the sort of problem.

Chirac is the president of a country that disagreed with the decision of the president (GWB) of another country. Presidents/leaders of still more countries either agreed with Chirac or agreed with GWB, and 'sides' were drawn up accordingly.

A few stupid people in ALL the countries involved (on both sides)got involved in a bit of flag-burning, McDonalds defacing, and so on. At the political level there was a bit of rhetoric thrown around - but no physical changes took place as such.

So at the end of the day, I'd love to know how - overnight - Jacques Chirac turned physically from the 'president of France' into a 'slimeball'. That's one hell of a change as a result of a simple disagreement.

spriggan

06-18-2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by McGiver

Do you really think some pipes are an evidence of the developement of nukes?
Umm they can be, certain tubes are used for the refining of Uranium that can only be used in nukes
Originally posted by McGiver

do you really think bush won the elections? (doesn't fit here, but I think it can't be shown often enough)

Yes Bush won the election. No US president has ever won via popular vote. And if you're even suggestion there was some type of conspercy then that's just plain sad. Don't comment on things (such as US law) that you don't know about
Originally posted by McGiver

do you really think freeing the Iraqi people was the main reason of this war (and why did the usa support such a regime if it's only aim is to free people)?
This on is harder but at the time Sadam came to power he was the lesser of two evils. It was during the cold war and the times were different. But just because we once supported him dosen't mean we should ignore him, and let him do what he wants.

Originally posted by McGiver

and when we discuss this once:
do you think there are no worse dictators in the world:
how about Burma, or China, or most of the african and asian counries?

I agree with you on this one. We did go into africa (somolia-Black Hawk down) to try and help them with out the UN's aprovial. And with France and Germany not wanting us to, but did anyone complain? No...Why? Some would say that Europe hate Bush so they'll oppose him no matter what he dose. I say think about it.

Originally posted by McGiver

And what ado you think about protecting nature?
Why do you think all other countries in the world save gas (in germany we pay more tha 1euro /l gas) or try to reduce the CO2 output? that us cars still need 20 l for 100 kilometers?
The Koyoto protocol (some internacial rules concerning the co2 output) has been signed by 178 countries. the 2 who did not sign it: The United States of America & People's Republic of China!

Nature...Hum killing puppies and burning down trees don't bother me. Anyway the Koyoto Treaty would hurt our economy, and at the time we were haveing trouble. Also India and several other countries didn't want to sign it.
Originally posted by McGiver

What do you think of the campaign agains France? Boycotting someone who sais: lets proof where the weapons of mass distraction are, before bombing the country!? this has nothing to do with cowardice if you do not want to support a war, which is apparent a try to save Oil sources, get rid of old (radioactive) ammunition, and getting new economic projects for the own industry,... whatever not with the main aim to free the iraqi people!

Man I don't even know where to start here. Umm the Boycott is not endorsed by the US govement and is 100% lead by normal Americans. There's nothing wrong with it, we live in a demoracy deal with it. What better way to so show someone your upset then by not giveing them your money. Also the US, UK and every other country got oil cheeper from Sadam then they'll be getting from Iraq now. Also the US wasn't the ones with the oil contracts with Iraq, which by the way were against the UN's orders. France,Germany and Russia were the ones doing that. Also the French and Germans were illegly selling Sadam weapons he wasn't supposed to have. True the main aim wasn't to free the Iraqi people, but to assert ourseld and to protect ourself. There's evedince that's being examined by seveal groups that shows France and Germany didn't want to loose millions of dollars in illegal transactions with Sadam. So think before you try to flame me and my country.

McGiver

06-18-2003, 01:40 PM

Ever read Stupid white man?
I think this is the book of a real patriot!

I do not have anything agains any american, but your actual regime has to be stopped. I hope the majority of americans thinks the same way too.

linckx

06-18-2003, 01:43 PM

that's something opinion - opinion,

don't think you should say things like that so easily...

-bout the whole list on top there's one thing that bothers me...

USA didn't sign kyoto before wtc...
and our economy is suffering too...
I think only new york can really tell that they're in trouble...

robin

spriggan

06-18-2003, 01:45 PM

well your wrong about that President Bush is the most popular preident in recent history. And as for michel Moore, he's so fillied with hate he's blind to all sides but his, and if you don't agree with him your a racist/biggott/nazi etx. Most people here in the states know that, and think of him more as asmusment then anything else. You know there's something wrong with him when during the Acadamy Awards he give a hate rant about Bush and the french man on stage with him (who worked with him) walked off the stage discused.

McGiver

06-18-2003, 01:47 PM

hmm, maybe you should ask some austrailans about that!
they are the ones who who have to but on sunblocker if they want to leave their houses without getting burned by the sun, which shines through the hole in the ozon layer :D

spriggan

06-18-2003, 01:48 PM

eh the Kyoto treaty was so long ago I don't remeber all the reasons we didn't sign it. I just know that was one of them. But hell I'll admit it, the US is a cocky country that allwayse places itself first over other countries.

linckx

06-18-2003, 01:51 PM

that is indeed true,

but I guess every country with that size and possibillities would.
It's not the humane way, but the human way af thinking...
l
robin

spriggan

06-18-2003, 01:54 PM

Also there's still a big debate going on over here about weither or not Global Warming is real or not. I have mixed views on this since both sides spin the facts to support them. I do know this, that cows casue almost 20% of the US's co2 pollution. Talk about rancid gas!

McGiver

06-18-2003, 01:55 PM

hmm, i do not think he is the most popular president, in my eyes, whe is the worst president after Reagan...

I do not say: USA bad, all counties good.
what michael moore says are facts. of course, you can't take everything he says for serious, but he probably offers more reliable informations than tv (fox for example)

And, it's not something like that: i'm an outstanding, commenting what i see without having any information how it really is!

linckx

06-18-2003, 01:57 PM

cows, wouldn't that be texan for cars? ;)

robin

McGiver

06-18-2003, 02:00 PM

Yeah, thats true, I already knowed that, the thing with the cows is funny :D
"Save the nature-eat more cows":D

spriggan

06-18-2003, 02:00 PM

umm your German and you hate Regan? didn't think that was possible or did you just happen to like the berlin wall?

And I'd becarefull saying Michal moore is honest and Fox isn't. It does show your political views. Moore has been provin wrong in a lot of stuff he does. And Fox, while it is more conservitave, or any news network (except maybe CNN in some cases which has real credability problems at the moment) dosen't lie, they just tell you how they see it. There's a big difference between the two.

linckx

06-18-2003, 02:02 PM

I didn't even know that us had something to do with the berlin wall... clear things up for me please?

robin

Sualdam

06-18-2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by spriggan
eh the Kyoto treaty was so long ago I don't remeber all the reasons we didn't sign it

It was commercial/economic and constitutional.

1) Don't upset our businesses or force them to put prices up because that could affect the economy

2) The constitution basically prevents the government (or rather, lawyers can twist it this way) telling people what to do.

It's much the same reason guns won't get banned: you can't tell people what to do, even though they can't make the right decisions if you don't. Catch-22.

But it's OK to call the French president a 'slimeball' because he diagreed with your leader :rolleyes:

McGiver

06-18-2003, 02:03 PM

something I also want to add:

there are more candidates to be elected than 2
(just wanted to add that)

spriggan

06-18-2003, 02:05 PM

Regan pressured to Soviets to tear it down a pull out of germany.

linckx

06-18-2003, 02:07 PM

thx ;)

robin

Sualdam

06-18-2003, 02:09 PM

Spriggan, you should cool it, man.

It seems most people around here are not American, so they aren't going to agree with your version of world history.

I must say that I more or less agreed with GWB's stance on the war - which puts me on your side - but your attitude is one of the reasons I had doubts. It is so biased, but I bet you can't see that.

No one will ever agree on this subject, you know.

spriggan

06-18-2003, 02:10 PM

overly simplified I know. But if MCgiver is commenting on US elections. Yes I agree there should be more then 2 parites. There's nothing in US law limiting it. And as for Calling Charic a slimeball...Not becasue he dissagreed but becasue I think he's purposly trying to underming the US's national security and forien policy by doing the exact opposite of what a rational person would do. There's nothing wrong with dissagreing with the US but he took every action to try and make us look bad. And I think that's why most americans are upset with france. There's no real belgium,russian or german backlash going on here and they opposed us. Just french.

linckx

06-18-2003, 02:11 PM

Spriggan, you should cool it, man.

don't think so, let him express his opinion, if you don't agree, smile and feel smarter but don't insult him

robin

spriggan

06-18-2003, 02:13 PM

I don't see myself as being agressive. I'm sorry if I come accross that way. I'm not trying to be. I'm just trying to rebute or answer alligations/questions to the best of my knowledge. I know I wont magicaly convert anyone. Just haveing a conversation to try and understand others opinions. And give mine.

linckx

06-18-2003, 02:14 PM

Just haveing a conversation to try and understand others opinions. And give mine.

that's the whole intention of the general chat forum

robin

McGiver

06-18-2003, 02:15 PM

Don't get me wrong, I am not a komunist ar anything like that!
I am also a conservative voter, but I think some things told to the american people are not the full truth.
The thing with the Berlin wall, was something which had to happen. The DDR (the comunistic part of germany) had no more money. There simply were no other alternatives!
Germany was the biggest economical power.
Germany would have payed all it's depths till 1995. With becoming united again, the depth rised so high, that the compound interest are growing every year.

McGiver

06-18-2003, 02:19 PM

yeah, the thing wirh the 2 parties.
I tried to express that there is no law limiting them, and because most americans think if they elect a 3rd candidate they throw away their vote.

nice, that you try to protect me, but i don't feel insulted

boyzdynasty

06-18-2003, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Sualdam
It seems most people around here are not American, so they aren't going to agree with your version of world history.
It shouldn't matter. People should voice their opinions if they have one. It is good to see different perspectives on the same subjuct matter.

The person could be way out line or way off or on the right track...still it is good to know what others think.

I usually stay out of these political fueds b/c I myself am not that educated about politics. But I'm afraid my own ignorance will be my downfall. So reading this thread was a good start to pick up on some topics and start reading up on more sources about current events.

Anyway...i can just go on and on...about free speech....

So keep the info. comin'...but a few post back I was getting a little squimesh b/c I thought there would be some kind of racial battle stirring up.

Just a word of advice! When you do decide to post your opinion out there for others to view, make sure you have facts to back 'em up. ;)

spriggan

06-18-2003, 02:24 PM

I wasn't calling you a comunist. Just being scarcastic, which never comes off well in forums. That was in poor taste, sorry. True the DDR was broke, but it was russias say. As I said I had oversimplified it. You could say that Gorbi (I can't spell his real name) had more to do with it, realiseing that Communism wasn't working. Regan more or less gave him a reason to make the changes nessacery in russia. And the combining of the east and west did cost west germans a lot of money. If I remeber correctly it crashed their economy, which was in the top 5 at the time. It was an unfortuneate sideeffect of that, I could be wrong but I assumed most germans were willing to make some scarifice to help the East. But it was worse then they expected. Actauly there West/East german example is one of the reasons why South Korea dosen't want to Join with North Korea if the oppertunity arrises. It realy worries the SK goverment.

edit: I actualy voted for Nader for the sole reason of him arguing that there should be more then 2 parties. Of course if I thought he had a chance of winning I wouldn't have.

McGiver

06-18-2003, 02:31 PM

Oh, i wasn't thinking, you expected me to be a communist. I was just trying to tell you, that you don't have to be left-orientated to dislike reagan and bush

Addition to reagan. Ever heard of the ministery of unamerican activities? he founded it. A kind of "crucible" (<-->Arthur miller book) started, and people like charlin chaplin have been put down, because anyone expected him to be a communist.

spriggan

06-18-2003, 02:35 PM

thought that was Joe McCarthy, which was way before Regan

McGiver

06-18-2003, 02:35 PM

sorry, my fault :(
of course, you're right

spriggan

06-18-2003, 02:36 PM

lol I had to Google that one to make sure. But McCarthy was a witch hunter. And it's not something many are proud of.

McGiver

06-18-2003, 02:37 PM

didn't want to tell you something wrong :(

McGiver

06-18-2003, 02:47 PM

ok:
replace ("this thread",Reagan, Mccarthy);

thats why I wrote the replacinator thing for the Just for Kicks challange :D

spriggan

06-18-2003, 02:49 PM

hehe AS can make any situtuation good. Well I'm off to bed. Nice chatting with you.

VitiminJ

06-18-2003, 02:49 PM

I've read some stuff here that I would love comment on, but I'm not going to. I think a lot of people from other countries have an idea about American life and laws but have no actual grasp of what it's like to be an American. It like in the movie Good Will Hunting, Robin Williams says "I bet you can tell me everything there is to know about the Sisteen Chapel, but have never actually saw it." Thats the way you people are you comment on our laws and actions but really have no clue. Regardless if we find WMD or not we still took out one of the wosrt leaders in our time. Some may even argue that he was as bad as Hitler. We did what we had to do. There is a long list of why we went there and I believe and support all of them. After the WTC disaster we had to go out and flex our muscles a little, make sure everyone knows we are America and we run things. You people who don't live here, have no clue what it like to be an American and feel the pain we felt that day! And if Afganistan and Iraq are the only two to get it, the world should feel lucky. Right now with what we went through on that day, not many American people are going to go against GWB.

spriggan is my new friend, you put up one hell of an arguement. I support everything you said.

McGiver do you actually think our regime has to be stopped?

linckx

06-18-2003, 02:57 PM

hi vitiminj, forgive me the comparison but your post is like an elephant in a porcelain store...

I would really like to hear your point's cause I'm gonna give you mine;

After the WTC disaster we had to go out and flex our muscles a little, make sure everyone knows we are America and we run things.

who told you guys you run things? you're big. So is Russia, or China.

You people who don't live here, have no clue what it like to be an American and feel the pain we felt that day!

there's pain enough in the world to be able to feel it anywhere.
One bad day is no excuse for bombing two countries. they felt that kind of pain all the days you bombed 'em but didn't have the insurance that they'd be able to defend theirselves.

And if Afganistan and Iraq are the only two to get it, the world should feel lucky

oh come on... that's almost a threat...

sorry to sound harsh... but I don't agree with things you put (might be just the way you put it...)

robin

VitiminJ

06-18-2003, 03:14 PM

elephant in a porcelain store... thats funny.

I don't expect you to agree, nor do I want to convert your beliefs to be mine. I'm not going to express my views anymore but the world we live in will be a better place once we take care of terrorism.

As far as a bad day I guess thats one way to put it, coming from someone who is not American. And yes a bad day is every reason to bomb two countries, these people used our own people to kill others. Last time I checked there were Germans who worked and died in that building that day. Wouldn't you like to put as end to this?

Americans have three things they don't talk about when they're drunk.

1) Politics
2) Religion
3) Race

In this case I'm not drunk but the rules should still be followed. I like this forum and I like you people. And until now I never really realized that we were different. I thought we all had a thirst for Flash. But after reading this I have to admit my opions are a little altered of everyone here, which is my I regret reading this forum.

linckx

06-18-2003, 03:20 PM

In this case I'm not drunk but the rules should still be followed. I like this forum and I like you people. And until now I never really realized that we were different. I thought we all had a thirst for Flash. But after reading this I have to admit my opions are a little altered of everyone here, which is my I regret reading this forum.

hey, people can't agree on anything, and I'm sure none of us will ignore someone from now on because he/she 's american or so...

and mcGiver, sorry for this: I absolutely don't care that there were germans, there were also two belgians... they're dead now and bombing ain't gonna bring them back. Imagine what would happen when israel or palestina wouldn't accuse eachother but other country's and start bombing them too?

Americans have three things they don't talk about when they're drunk.

that we do in belgium, but we laugh at it when we're drunk ;)

robin

06-18-2003, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by spriggan
Umm the Boycott is not endorsed by the US govement and is 100% lead by normal Americans.

the gov does support boycotts... try to buy a real cuban cigar anywhere inside the us legally.

Originally posted by spriggan
Also there's still a big debate going on over here about weither or not Global Warming is real or not. I have mixed views on this since both sides spin the facts to support them. I do know this, that cows casue almost 20% of the US's co2 pollution. Talk about rancid gas!

there was also a big debate for many years that smoking wasn't bad for you... most of the debate was instigated/paid for by the tobacco industry and their lobbiests....

i think its the same with global warming... its happening, but industries that have the most to loose keep stirring the pot, creating/paying for studys saying its not etc.

as for wmd, whether a pipe is used to create nukes or not, i think that fact that iraq sits on the second largest deposite of oil in the world has more to do with bush going into iraq than wmd... i mean look at it this way.

we had nothing on iraq, but we 'know' that n korea has the bomb, and is killing/starving thousands of its own people... why don't we go in there and get rid of the rulers?

1, n. korea doesn't have the big payoff layin under the ground like iraq does, and 2. n. korea with its nukes can fight back, and may hurt us badly enough that it probably scares the cahones(sp?) off of bush.

McGiver

06-18-2003, 03:24 PM

@vitamin
hey, it's not a patriotic question here.
I am not proud to be german. I am happy to live here, of course! It's a nice country with lovely people living in it.
But that's not a reason to support everything the government does.

I'm sure, although we never lived in america, we can comment on it. We did not live in Nazi-germany too, but we all know, that what they did was wrong (that does NOT mean, that bush is like hitler!). there are things that we can comment on although we never did it, if we have enough information about it (think about drugs).

how it is to be an american? I think I know how it is, although I've never been one! what is different between you and me? the country we are born in (and maybe you are more patriotic). view the first lines for more.

I like what spriggan says. It shows he is able to deal with the topic. Are you too???

06-18-2003, 03:26 PM

heh. look what you've done mortimer jazz... i just looked at who's online, and theres like 6 folks in this thread right now...

linckx

06-18-2003, 03:28 PM

héhé, yeah, where are you mort?

robin

VitiminJ

06-18-2003, 03:32 PM

No I'm not able to deal with the topic, because what you people are saying is complete BS. And I meant Saddam is comparable to Hitler.

linckx

06-18-2003, 03:37 PM

as I stated in a far earlier post:

opinions are opinions and never bullshit...
so if you don't agree with us, just call us stupid europeans who don't know what the world is about, but do that in your head...

robin

McGiver

06-18-2003, 03:39 PM

Sorry man, but you should really try to be able to see things from a different angel.
That's this theme for me. if you've got someting to say about it, say it , but i will not comment on it.

McGiver

06-18-2003, 03:40 PM

hmm, i think we scared mortimer with our discussion ;)

06-18-2003, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by VitiminJ
No I'm not able to deal with the topic,

i gotta agree with vitaminj here... i can't hardly read this stuff either... it gets to point reading some of the posts, and i just feel like i'm gonna bust.

and the results are rediculusly long post like my previous one.... at least i didn't come in loaded up on sugar this am... i woulda had a heart attack by now. heh.

linckx

06-18-2003, 03:52 PM

that we surely understand, no doubt about it,

but you should (not talking bout you) still be able to accept other people's opinion.
for you guys apparently 11/9 was a massive culture-shock, while most people in europe had something like: 'it's bad, but they had it coming...'

that's opinions...
the fun on talking on these topics is that you get to know the opinions of others. this is not a re-baptising clinic, but an opportunity given to vent your ideas, without bashing others...

robin

VitiminJ

06-18-2003, 04:03 PM

'it's bad, but they had it coming...'

Why the hell would anyone even say this? How could anyone have something so terrible like this have it coming! Why did we have it coming because we have protected, rebuilt and saved other countires. Yes it was a mojor culture shock but I can gurantee that if it happens in your country you'd feel the same way and be just as pissed as us for saying **** like they had it coming.

Sualdam

06-18-2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by spriggan
There's nothing wrong with dissagreing with the US but he took every action to try and make us look bad.

And now it's tit-for-tat. You are trying to make him look bad.

This is why getting heated about it doesn't help one bit. There are a heck of a lot of people with anti-American sentiments. Are they all wrong? Who are you (or the US, or UK, or anybody) to say? They just have an opinion that is different.

It was escalating differences that led to just about every major conflict in history. I thought we'd have learnt by now.

06-18-2003, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by linckx
'it's bad, but they had it coming...'

well, i don't think the people who were killed in their office buildings or who were killed on the airplanes had it coming...

i've got an aunt and uncle living in syria right now... they keep telling me that they can't believe how friendly and helpful and supportive the syrian people are... they really like americans/the people... they don't like the american government/american foriegn policy.

when i hear this, i am continually amazed that they can seperate the two... seams like others have a problem seperating the difference also.

Sualdam

06-18-2003, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by boyzdynasty
...but a few post back I was getting a little squimesh b/c I thought there would be some kind of racial battle stirring up.

Which is why I said what I did.

I used to frequent a board where the average age seeemed like 14 and these conversations always escalated out of hand within seconds.

Just for the record, I'm all for free speech - but not when it will automatically lead to trouble. So I will exercise MY right to it and suggest people calm down if they appear to be excessively irate ;)

VitiminJ

06-18-2003, 04:18 PM

CALM DOWN, CALM DOWN HOW CAN YOU EXPECT ME TO CALM DOWN..........Just Kidding I agree!:)

Sualdam

06-18-2003, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by VitiminJ
After the WTC disaster we had to go out and flex our muscles a little, make sure everyone knows we are America and we run things...

Linckx has already said what I feel in repsonse to this (I like the elephant in a porcelain shop analogy :)).

Comments like this one scare me. They really do. With people who think like that the world has no future at all. And they are allowed to own guns, too. :(

Anyone see that Simpsons episode where the baby had a nail gun...?

linckx

06-18-2003, 04:21 PM

I apologize for what seems to be a really bad choice of words...
I don't know if you guys use this saying too, but I meant something like

high trees catch a lot of wind

nothing offensive...

VitiminJ

06-18-2003, 04:24 PM

That episode was freaking great. Maggie nailed Homer to the wall.

06-18-2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by VitiminJ
CALM DOWN, CALM DOWN HOW CAN YOU EXPECT ME TO CALM DOWN..........Just Kidding I agree!:)

hehhehheh

06-18-2003, 04:25 PM

*sigh*

i'm off to an all day meeting now... came in eary to work on a project... and got stuck in as.org (again).

linckx

06-18-2003, 04:26 PM

That episode was freaking great

you see there are points in which we agree ;):p
ths simpsons rock!

robin

McGiver

06-18-2003, 04:28 PM

lol (I agree too)

VitiminJ

06-18-2003, 04:32 PM

I realize I need to be more open to others opinions, its hard though. War sucks I have many friends that were in both the wars. But it's something that we as people can't control. We have to show some loyalty to our Government. I don't agree with everything they do but you have to have some faith. And I believe that these wars were justified and neccesary.

linckx

06-18-2003, 04:37 PM

voila ;)

now we're where we need to be :D
you show you can listen to our views without necessarily accepting them :D

and of course we understand that being american these days isn't easy because everyone looks at you guys as the black sheep of the flock...

Belgians aren't used to listening to carefull to their government, that might be why we don't understand when others do...

anyway, glad to see things get positive vibes again :D

robin

VitiminJ

06-18-2003, 04:44 PM

Black sheep, who you calling a black sheep? jk :)

My friend in US Navy pulled into port in NYC a few weeks ago and I went out to see him for the weekend. While in port he had were is dress whites (his Navy uniform). Well the people of New York treated them like heroes. It was great to see people giving him respect and treating him good. I think that made me a little more patriotic then usual. It was amazing to see little kids stop dead in there tracks when they saw a real live sailor. People bought us drinks where ever we were, we didn't have to wait in lines, we got into all the hottest clubs with qeustions asked, it was great.

linckx

06-18-2003, 04:47 PM

that's indeed very nice.

A friend of mine told me similar things after visiting new york...
you guys pay much respect to your soldiers, while in belgium we've got something like: Hey you're a soldier... ooh look and there's the shopmanager from round the corner,....

robin

simontheak

06-19-2003, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by VitiminJ
After the WTC disaster we had to go out and flex our muscles a little, make sure everyone knows we are America and we run things. You people who don't live here, have no clue what it like to be an American and feel the pain we felt that day! And if Afganistan and Iraq are the only two to get it, the world should feel lucky.

Ok, I'm late to this thread and like similar people I was quite happy reading through it and not getting involved, but then I read the quote above and I had to write something. I dont' want to stir up the hornet's nest again, because this argument seems to have calmed down slightly, but that quote really wound me up.

I'm from London and over the last 20 years we've had quite a few IRA terrorist attacks. In fact I was caught in one about 10 years ago and I'm quite happy to admit that it was the scariest moment of my life. So don't tell me that I have no clue about what it feels like. Believe it or not, American's are not the only ones to have suffered from terrorism. I don't like this idea that terrorism has only been around since 9/11

Unfortunately though it seems that it's taken a terrible attack on your own soil to open your eyes and now the US expects everyone to fall in line behind it. Where was the American determination to combat terrorism when the Lloyds bomb went off? Nowhere. Nowadays though, anyone who doesn't support your cause is deemed a muppet.

And what's your reaction to 9/11? To let Afganistan and Iraq "get it" so that "everyone knows ... America ... run[s] things." That's your opinion and I have to respect that, but quite frankly that sort of disregard for human life frightens me.

I'm just grateful that you don't "run things."

linckx

06-19-2003, 11:07 AM

a very correct comparison (in my opinion ;))

and indeed, terrorism is (was, I hope:rolleyes: ) much more frequent in ireland and england than it is in US.

but a country that can play with the media like that... I don't blame 'em, would have done the same...

robin

VitiminJ

06-19-2003, 01:21 PM

I'm completely aware that there is terrorism in other places of the world. And your completely right it took a tragedy for us to realize it. Has there ever been an attack this big or that has shook the world like this one? No. But for years other countries have sat there not knowing what to do. Well we're not going to sit here. Do I think we can ever end terrorism, no probably not, but I'm sure the next time they plan an attack on US soil they might think twice. It sounds harse and all and war isn't the greatest in the world but sometimes in needed. Sad as it is. There may be a terriorist attack everyday in your country and thats sad and makes it so people are afraid to leave there homes. But have you ever had a terriorist attack that tries to criple your economy? Has there ever been an attack where your own citizens were used as weapons? If there was ever an attack this big in your country I'd hope your government has the balls that we do to do something about it.

Sualdam

06-19-2003, 01:28 PM

I was thinking more about this.

Isn't it strange that the way the USA thinks the world sees it is almost the exact opposite of the way the world actually does?

I mean, large sections of the globe think America is high and mighty and heavy-handed. Yet the Americans think the world regards them a pushover, and so must 'flex its muscles'.

It is so frustrating to see this sort of thing happen, because you can see conflict looming and yet can't do a thing about it.

Mortimer Jazz

06-19-2003, 01:28 PM

Chapter 1: "This wasn't meant to happen!"

Jaysus!
This wasn't meant to happen. Just a bit of interesting tit-tat about how ignorant some people can be, ... which I always find fascinating in a despairing kind of way ... and it's "blossomed" (for want of a better word) into this.

I have to say I've been saddened by some of the views expressed here. I don't think I need to make reference to the particular comments I'm referring to, but they have actually made me angry and a little sick with despair.
That's not to say there haven't also been a lot of valuable, thoughtful insights too.

I never have a problem with someone holding different opinions to my own. Infact, I'm more than happy to listen to them and give them ample consideration, purely because I might learn something - they might even persuade me that my original views don't actually stand up so well to scrutiny, they might alert me to an angle that I hadn't previously thought of - and the more considered my opinions are, the more chance that I'm heading in the right general direction.

What really sickens me is to see that so many people are loathed to do the same, and that's evident from parts of this thread. It's almost as if they're afraid to listen incase someone proves them wrong.
_______________________________________________
Chapter 2: "The idiots guide on offending loads of people in one go"

I had this blazing row with some religious guy not so long ago. He believed that the bible was a factual account of the earth's history - and he's quite entitled to do so. I told him that I wasn't religious and didn't believe in the bible as anything more than a good moral guide on living - just my opinion.

I respected his view, but for some reason he didn't want to respect mine. Infact it really offended him, and without wanting to let me explain why I held these beliefs, he told me that I would burn in hell for ever and a day for being a non-believer (note to self: don't forget the marshmallows and toasting stick).

Now, like I said, I'm here to learn, and I'd based my opinion on valid reasoning of various views I had garnered in my short life. I don’t claim to know the answer, but I like to keep an open mind, so I asked him if he could answer some questions I had:

1) Could you provide a persuasive argument as to why dinosaurs are never mentioned in the bible? We have proof they existed but yet they are never mentioned. Do you believe God put dinosaur bones here on earth to trick us - was he just playing a joke on us to test our faith?

2) There's more than one religion on this earth that claims to be the "one and only true religion". It's obvious that they can't all be right. So, how do you know you've chosen the right one?
Why do you hold the beliefs that you do? You obviously weren’t around at the beginning of time, and you don't claim to have spoken to God directly, so would it be fair to say that the opinions you hold are influenced by the opinions exerted upon you by your family, peers, government, education system?
Would it also be fair to say that without the forementioned absolute proof, they are only opinions and not fact?

3) You are taught by your religion that if you question your beliefs then you have committed the sin of blasphemy and could burn in hell. Doesn't that sound like some kind of ruling dictatorship policy - strike fear in to the hearts of the people to prevent them from questioning what they are taught to believe??

Needless to say, this was like a red-rag to a bull, and needless to say he was unable to offer any enlightening arguments other than claiming that this was proof that I was in cahoots with the devil himself. Now, don't get me wrong. I don't disrespect his views and I wasn't making fun of him, but I was hoping he could teach me something useful, or perhaps I could teach him something useful, by bringing these points into question.

I work for a charity, donate money regularly too, ... I'd never hurt a flea, I don't steal, I don't kill people, I don't rape/pillage/plunder ..... yet I became the target of such hatred. He conveniently seemed to forget the “love thy neighbour” and “turn the other cheek” teachings of the Christian bible.
It's not even that I don't believe in God. I just don't hold the classical religious view. I'm happy enough to question my beliefs. I'm willing to listen to why he thinks I'm wrong. Heck, I'd even be prepared to change my opinion if his arguments were persuasive enough.

This account relates well to what I’ve read here. When are we going to get to that point where we realise that questioning our own beliefs is not a taboo thing to do.
It's the key to learning and evolving.

I noticed that there were quite a lot of references to “we” referring to America alone, on issues that affect the whole world. We all have a slanted viewpoint on world affairs depending on where we live, our culture and influences. Any culture that believes it doesn’t need to listen to the opinions of others (no matter how honorable it’s intentions) is a dangerous one …in my opinion.

I believe it was Wordsworth who once said “Here's my 10 cents, my 2 cents is free”… no, actually it was Eminem

linckx

06-19-2003, 01:28 PM

got a little different vision on some of your points:

But have you ever had a terriorist attack that tries to criple your economy?
//Edit:
by vitiminJ (;) for morty)

the attacks in england were for independency...so if you pull the line further that has also mayor economic influences, and btw...

the united states' economy is still one of the world's (if not the) strongest...

Has there ever been an attack where your own citizens were used as weapons?
//Edit:
by vitiminJ (;) for morty)

they were also victims... used as a weapon or not...

robin

//
wow, mort! that's the essence of discussion (figured that out myself but apparently had more trouble to put it into the right words...), as for the bible...

I think it's a work of art, written by some geniusses, and perfectly able to live by. But when you start taking things literal you start to get radical, and I've NEVER (and I stand very strong on this) seen anything radical be 100% good, not even 95%...

Sualdam

06-19-2003, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by VitiminJ
There may be a terriorist attack everyday in your country and thats sad and makes it so people are afraid to leave there homes. But have you ever had a terriorist attack that tries to criple your economy? Has there ever been an attack where your own citizens were used as weapons? If there was ever an attack this big in your country I'd hope your government has the balls that we do to do something about it.

Vitamin, you are going to get people's backs up as long as you keep bringing in bits that imply the WTC atrocity was in any way worse than any other terrorist attack resulting in death.

It isn't a game, that the US must win on all counts: 'yeah. But our terrorist attacks are much better than yours'.

Casual shootings is something YOU have everyday in the US - it is nowhere near as bad in the places where we live. The point is more people die in the US through gun related incidents than die in terrorist attacks everywhere else in the world.

Every terrorist attack I can think of is designed to cripple an economy. They are invariably of a political or religious/political nature, and wouldn't happen if everyone was on the same side. So stop trying to make out the WTC event was special in that way.

The rest of us are waiting for further al-Qaeda attacks - bio-weapons, bombs, planes (again), you name it.

Try and understand that the attack on the WTC was an attack on the West - NOT just America. If the American economy collapses, so does everyone else's in the West.

And try not to forget that America also relies heavily on imports, so any one else's economy collapsing might hit you harder than you think.

The weirdest thing is, when I saw the WTC events on TV, I felt just the same as I would if it had happened in the next City along the motorway in the UK.

Unfortuantely, a surfeit of Nationalism prevents many Americans from seeing or feeling things in that way at all.

Mortimer Jazz

06-19-2003, 02:31 PM

Heh, thanks linckx.

btw: any chance you could you edit your post above, so it says who those quotes are from? At the moment it looks as if they refer to the previous post (ie mine). They're certainly not mine :)

[ edit: why, thankyou kind sir :) ]

Mortimer Jazz

06-19-2003, 02:38 PM

Of course, I have this sneaking suspicion that one of the people contributing to this thread is just having a laugh amd just stirring things up. Kind of hope so, because the alternative is worse! Anyone else get the same feeling? ;)

boyzdynasty

06-19-2003, 04:44 PM

well said MortJ.

I honestly don't know what exactly to say.
After reading all the posts so far, what freaks me out is the sense of anger I get out of most of 'em. And that is scary.

As for VitiminJ, calm down. When I read your posts it seems like the issue you pose only affects you not "us" or "we".
Try the evaluate you think of posting before you post it to see if it makes sense. I say that not to be rude.

06-19-2003, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Mortimer Jazz
I don't steal, I don't kill people, I don't rape/pillage/plunder .....

ohhh com'on morty... ya gotta live alittle... maybe you should try a little raping and pillaging... its exillerating.

linckx

06-19-2003, 05:51 PM

or to get really bad you can go get that math book from the other thread ;)

robin

Sualdam

06-19-2003, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by Mortimer Jazz
Of course, I have this sneaking suspicion that one of the people contributing to this thread is just having a laugh amd just stirring things up. Kind of hope so, because the alternative is worse! Anyone else get the same feeling? ;)

It'd be nice to think so, Mortimer.

But I've seen this exact same conversation take place on another Flash forum and I can assure you that there really are people who believe this rubbish out there.

It scares me. It involves almost the exact same mentality that the terrorists have.

linckx

06-19-2003, 06:41 PM

right again sualdam :(

robin

Sualdam

06-19-2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by boyzdynasty
As for VitiminJ, calm down.

Careful, there, Boyz.

Apparently that is infringing his right to free speech.

That's a Neddy-no-no, I believe ;)

jevans

06-20-2003, 03:00 AM

the following is an excerpt from moby's online journal:

and why isn't anyone in america more upset that bush and his cronies apparently lied about the 'intelligence' that was used to justify the war against iraq?
bill clinton lied about infidelity.
george bush lied about military intelligence so that he could wage a war that cost hundreds of billions of dollars and that alienated all of our allies and that resulted in thousands of deaths. apparently the iraqii's had no involvement with al qaeda, and no weapons of mass destruction and no nuclear weapons program. at least that's according to military intelligence that was delivered to george bush. but bush and his henchmen chose to lie about the information they'd been given and instead fabricate intelligence to justify their oil war.
and no one in america cares?
that george bush lied to start a war that will cost taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars and has resulted in dead iraqii's and dead allied and american soldiers?

ok, i don't want to think about it. just another creepy and illegal and unethical thing that the bush administration has done and that they'll probably get away with.
ugh.
-moby

now im not trying to plug this guys site, or music or whatever, but i definately agree with a lot of his opinions. check out www.moby.com if you want to read more views of the worlds state of affairs.

peace, jevans.

annexion

06-20-2003, 07:23 AM

Just a couple things I wanted to say...

I'm a big advocate for sincerity and honesty in someone's demeanor... My father has met Bush Jr. and made it abundantly clear to me that he did not get that impression. And from newscasts and such, I tend to agree. HOWEVER, I believe in the cause we're debating over (terrorism, Afghanistan, Iraq, Hussein...), although I have some contentions with the means to the end.

It very much irritates me that some of you think you know every detail about every facet of the war situation. I'm gathering that some of you are formulating arguments on pure speculation. It's like coming to a gun fight with a ping pong paddle. Without knowing at least most of the facts, it's all opinions and that some of you are getting visibly upset over someone disagreeing with your's is ridiculous.

So, my OPINION is, some of you think your opinions are bulletproof and infallible. Per what was hinted at earlier, you must be objective to join in a conversation of this magnitude otherwise you're just adding to the inflammation. Instead of arguing over hearsay, let's try to produce some factual information that isn't biased by patriotic opinions or big, bloated media.

Please don't assume that I'm being anal-retentive. What I've said is just meant to open eyes rather than being a rulebook to follow in debating something.

Au revoir

Oh, and by the way, it's "You couldn't tell me what is smells like in the Sisteen Chapel.":p

VitiminJ

06-20-2003, 01:04 PM

smells, looks, tastes, whatever.

06-20-2003, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by VitiminJ
smells, looks, tastes, whatever.

see... now that just puts a very disturbing picturing in my mind of someone going up and licking adams fig leaf.

VitiminJ

06-20-2003, 03:25 PM

Adam....thats a picture of Adam? Just kidding.

annexion

06-21-2003, 06:01 AM

Vitimin, that was by no means an attempt to show you up. It's obvious that you like the movie as much as I do, so I figured I'd give it justice. That's all.

duffi

06-23-2003, 11:50 AM

I'm new to this thread too, and have read through it with interest and at times dismay. I agree that we all have to approach a thread like this with an open mind, we all have our opinions but have to be prepared to examine their validity. I guess regardless of people's opinions though it is reassuring to see that people are interested in what is going on in this world.

For my two cents i'd like to add that among the things that upset me is the feeling of powerlessness that recent events leave me with.

We can rant as much as we like but it appears that messers Bush Blair et al. will do exactly what they want regardless of justice and truth. I suspect that they did lie to the people regarding WMDHBPWDL (weapons of mass destruction held by people we don't like) , on a calculation that the people would not care enough to do anything about it.

And the media are doing a shocking job of reporting in an unbiased fashion. It appears that anyone in the mainstream media who attempts to write articles that do not toe the line runs the risk of being set upon as 'anti american' or 'unpatriotic' depending on where one lives.:mad:

So our governments are ignoring us, the media is about as reliable as the old soviet press and innocent people are dying. I don't know how to solve this, i guess at the very least we need to get out and VOTE when we get the opportunity. (assuming our respective countries have an oppostion worthy of power)

VitiminJ

06-23-2003, 12:57 PM

annexion
I didn't take it that way at all. It's all good.

vilehelm

06-23-2003, 07:17 PM

YAY! Finally a calm day at work where I can slack off a bit and post something.

My two cents:

If you're looking for motives, consider how many countries out there have despots, support terrorism in some form or another and then ask yourselves "Why Iraq?" and not some othe country. Why not Saudi Arabia? They've been buying off terrorists for years to keep their backyard relatively clean...that's a form of support right? Now it seems that the payoffs have stopped or the fundamentalists don't care anymore.

I'm firmly in the camp that GWB is a jack ass who has yet to pull off a success in any way shape or form. He can't run businesses, baseball teams, governments or a segway. If his daddy wasn't a billionaire he'd be a used car salesman because there is nothing inherent about the man that is remotely deserving of his status in the world. He's the product of money and he stinks of it. If anyone out there thinks he can relate whatsoever to your reality and your needs, you're fooling yourself.

Think about this the next time you're voting...

"ARE YOU MORE OR LESS FREE?"

The Bush administration has been cultivating fear and paranoia as an opportunity to infringe on nearly every civil liberty that US citizens have.

Do I agree Saddam was/is a bad man...yes. The UN said so many times and really we/they could've moved forward and taken him out justifiably anytime in the last 6 years (was it 10 or 14 resolutions the UN came up with). You can only draw your line in the sand so many times before you have to step up. My problem is that they use paranoia as a leverage tool and cultivate it to get what they want.

AND, my last thought to piss everyone off and then I'll leave you alone.

Fact 1) 4000 people killed by terrorists in a plane provokes major warfare across the globe.

Fact 2) Each year more than 400,000 people in the US, and over three million around the world, die from tobacco-related illnesses.

C'MON !!! Drag those corporate jackasses out into the streets, line 'em up and eliminate the real evil from the world!

...

have a nice day!!!