As a designer, do you honestly know how good you are?

[reedy2k]

I have been looking for some talented flash designers for a while and so I posted my project on a couple of 'elance' style sites.

I stated very clearly the kind of quality I was looking for, and even posted a link to a well designed flash site, with nice rollovers, transitions etc so the bidders know what I am expecting.

What I got back was laughable. (although the following is not an actual comment from a bidder, it is my cynical amalgamation of the utter rubbish I was shown as examples of work by around 20 "designers")

"yes we are more than capable of producing what you require, have a look at our portfolio where you will find absolutley no evidence of any previous flash sites done, just a couple of really bad flash intros, at 4fps, with no easing and some jpegs that zoom in and out. Also, if you look carefully you may also notice we have forgotten to put a 'hit state' on the buttons so you'll need to use all your skill and dexterity to click right on one of the letters of 'click here'. We can start right now, but need all money up front"

So my question is this......Are people actually able to look at a piece of work and honestly gauge whether they can replicate the same level of quality. I know I can. But there are clearly those who cant.

Just needed to get it off me chest! Thanks.

[Billy T]

was money discussed? maybe the money you were offering meant that quality flash designers/developers weren't interested

its true though, I've met a heap of multimedia developers that say 'yeah I can do that, sure I can do that, yeah I know flash ...etc' and when you question them a little further you realise they don't know ****

I think one of they main problems is that its very easy to pick up the basic of flash. Someone learns in a day how to tween and use gotoAndStop() (which is exciting at the time) and they think 'hey this program is easy' and they really do think they know it...

anyway I'm blabbering...keep looking - you'll find someone (have a look in the employment section of this site)

[reedy2k]

regarding money: its a bidding process so essentially they name their price!

cheers

[Timmee_3Styler]

hehe reedy2k... still looking :D

[petefs]

We come up against that sort of thing all the time reedy : ) Of course, more often than not it's a client saying 'Can you make something like this?' and showing us the kind of flash site that your bidders are showing you :D I guess some people don't have any aesthetic sense, but think that 'flash' is automatically better than 'plain ole html'. What link did you post? We're booked up but you never know... ; )

[Cota]

its true though, I've met a heap of multimedia developers that say 'yeah I can do that, sure I can do that, yeah I know flash ...etc' and when you question them a little further you realise they don't know ****


Its not just these flash wannabe's that do that. The entire web market has been over saturated with these types of people. Anyone with a web editor, or flash for that matter, claims to be a web designer. Its pretty damn annoying if you ask me.

[CyanBlue]

Um... Why are you guys keep mentioning me??? :confused:

[petefs]

photoshop a ton of coffee cups in there and that's me every day : )

[pixelwit]

I think you're being a little harsh Reedy2k. (For the record, I didn't see or respond to your ad.) What you might have been experiencing is something similar to the following...

Flash blurs the line between Developer and Designer. Perhaps the responses you received were from people closer to the "Developer" end of the spectrum. I personally like to think I could "create" or duplicate many of the quality sites I've seen if someone told me that's what they wanted. This concept might also explain why so many people tend to rip 2advanced and similar sites. You just might have been hearing from people who can do the type of site you provided as an example, but haven't done so... yet.

Another thing to consider is that you might have been getting responses from people closer to the "Designer" end of the spectrum and they probably tend to consider themselves "Artists". As you may know, Artists tend to carry around a good bit of "ego" therefore they may think they're really good even after being presented with evidence to the contrary.

One last thing to consider, perhaps you want too much. If you want seriously "top of the line" stuff then there's going to be a fairly limited amount of people with adequate qualifications who can accomplish the level of results you're seeking. It may even be fair to guess that most of them won't be reading "elance" sites looking for work as they're already in high demand. Maybe stating an actual amount which you're willing to pay for a top-notch site will show how serious you are and therefore, help draw out the big guns.

Just something for you to consider. :)

-PiXELWiT
http://www.pixelwit.com

[farafiro]

I do agree with Pixelwit
and I may add, if you want a high quality site with a cool design, transition, 3d work, ...., these needs a teamwork, not an indvidual 'lancer'
my openion

[Timmee_3Styler]

But most of these "lancers" on these freelancers sites are a team, their just not too good @ what their doing and their fairly inexpensive

[annexion]

How do you know?

Sometimes, instead of seeing others as they are, we see them as we are.

[McGiver]

reminds me of this one:
http://www.heise.de/ct/schlagseite/04/11/gross.jpg

it says something like:
"good news concerning the unemployment figures, which decreased by 978.333 .
another sign for the recovery of our economy is the number of freelancing webdesigners which grew from 3.000.000 to 3.978.333 ."

[Cota]

Excellent. I finally figured out how to beat McGiver's footer game. Guess there's nothing else to live for. I could always become a freelancer

[Timmee_3Styler]

Cota...TEACH TEACH ME :P

[farafiro]

heheheeeeeeeeeeee
Guess there's nothing else to live for. we'll miss ya

[Cota]

At least I'd be missed. And I was worried no one would notice.

[farafiro]

heheheeeeeee
who told ya so??

[McGiver]

@cota:
congratulations! now you just have to beat the next 9 levels :D
since only 1 of 4 people are abled to beat the first level, I made the game a little easier.

http://www.digitalhalo.de/phpexp/statsimg/makimg.php?img=http://www.digitalhalo.de/footer/statsv6/stats.php

[Cota]

9 levels of that, ok, thats just cruel.

[McGiver]

well, actually there are 5 level types to make it less boring ;)
I just uploaded a newer version that shoud be a little easier.

[Karl Freeman]

Hi all,
first of all i am only 15 (just to get the record striaght)... anyway. i am the person you are taking about :( (which sucks) becuase i know i am not that good at designing but i would say that i am a web designer. the only reason i am saying this is that if you are not good at designing web sites and anything else it is practise that makes perfect so your gonna have to say you are a designer in the begining <- that probly sounded weird i know but basically what i am trying to say is that i know that there are people who say there designers and there not but sometimes some people who say they are designeres are just inexpericaed (like myself). oh and as i am 15 i have question to ask. does being a flash designer pay good money? and is it worth me spending my life being one? (which is what i want to do) the only thing is from my point of view i havent seen being a flash designer pay at all except form being a really cool job plus isnt ther loads of flash designers allready out there taking all the jobs that people need doing. i suppose the thing is i am quite good at flash and stuff but my downfall is that i am not creative enough so is it worth me trying to be more creative and better at design when some 1 else is going to take the job away from me any way becuase there more experianced?

my confesion lol - Karl Freeman

[tg]

don't base what you want to do on how much you'll make.
base what you want to do on what you love to do. the money will come if you passionate about it.

[tg]

ok,that doesn't really answer your question about how much it pays. depends on what you think 'good money' is. if its green, its good (in the us at least). it also depends on where you live. i'm comfortable here in the northwest on what i make, but i don't think it would strech far enough for my wife, myself and my 2 kids down in california. at the same time my current salary would have me rolling in the dough somewhere like north dakota.

[Karl Freeman]

I suppose thats right but i just wanted to know if i could make a living out of it when i am fully trained up.

karl freeman

[Karl Freeman]

i live in england near oxford which is about an hours drive fomr london so i dunno how much iy would pay down here

[McGiver]

there are too many webdesigners and too few jobs at the moment.

[Karl Freeman]

That must suck i mean i was just wondering thats all. another question while i am here. at the moment i am enjoying using flash i can make basic games and basic site but want to get better at the arty creative side of design. should i keep specfiing myself to flash or should i try new things ?

[McGiver]

trying new things is a kind of requirement. you won't have much to do if you only know flash.
by the way, one of the new things you could try is making your footer smaller. ;)
600x125 Pixel is kind of huge.

it makes 2 posts with 3 lines of text nearly fill my whole screen.

I'm sure it will look good too if it's smaller

[Karl Freeman]

oh sorry rong one that is my presntation sized one lol woops

[Karl Freeman]

there much better sorry guys

[McGiver]

much better thanks :)

[Cota]

Karl, if you plan on mastering the craft then dont worry about being called one of the wannabe's. There is a difference between the wannabe's and someone that wants to take it all the way. Keep in mind, we were all once where you are now. You can never stand still in this industry. As far as making money, if you limit yourself to flash, you probably wont make too much money. The great thing about flash is that you can make it work with just about anything. 3D programs, programming languages ranging from ASP, PHP, to Java and C#. I guess its like being an actor, how ever can do the most tricks will win.

[petefs]

I dunno, we could use one more underpaid developer at our office, we've got too much work and not enough man hours : )

[sho shinjo]

design wise ~ solid 8...
developer wise ~ shakey 4

overall knowledge of online and offline ~ solid 7

now what I'm getting paid is like a 3.... :eek:


damn it....

[tg]

another thing to keep in mind; experiment as much as possible to improve your skills, but keep in mind, folks won't generally pay you for that kind of stuff.... try to keep your eyes and ears open for what people need. if you want to make money doing this stuff you got to have something that folks need, not something thats nice but won't add any value to their organization.

some of the stuff that flash is ready for, but not many people are doing yet, are interfaces/applications for handheld devices, and i think the next really fun/exciting thing will be flash in conjunction with interactive tv. (imagine sitting at your tv watching a pizza commercial with a flash interface that you can use your remote to click on a button to order a pizza for delivery to your door now)..... add a beer for me to that order please.

hehheh.

[petefs]

make it two beers!

[tg]

your right petefs... i'm feeling kinda thirsty... oh, should i get a third for you?

heh.

[petefs]

yeah, just make a big third : )

[farafiro]

(imagine sitting at your tv watching a pizza commercial with a flash interface that you can use your remote to click on a button to order a pizza for delivery to your door now)..... add a beer for me to that order please.

hehheh.
heheheeeeeeee
where is mine??
;)

[Karl Freeman]

Thsnks guys i will try and new things and keep trying to get better at design. and yeah interactive pizza delievry service would be sweet.... imagine if the person taking your orders was on a live webcam lol speacking to you through a microphone.... "can i talk your order"..... if only i had the power of putting webcams and microphones on tv then you could speack to people through the t.v .... whilst having a beer :D

karl

[CyanBlue]

design wise ~ solid 8...
developer wise ~ shakey 4

overall knowledge of online and offline ~ solid 7

now what I'm getting paid is like a 3.... :eek:


damn it....
Man... I've seen your design pieces and you should get paid more than that...
You've got to move up here... I've got no design skill at all, but I make reasonable amount of money which probably is somewhere around the medium of what my folks make... MOVE!!!

[sho shinjo]

You've got to move up here... MOVE!!!
I have been looking into moving up there(for a few) the market is really hard to break into, because company's "do not look happily on someone that has to move" when they need to fill a spot "quickly"...

I think if I work my mojo :D this year i will get paid what I am worth... The my site is done finally just need to upload it along with a few others i have finished (side projects). Things are looking semi better.....


just wish me luck.

[CyanBlue]

Yeah... I know... I was looking for job in VA area from GA for several months and I ended up moving up here before I actually got the job... But you have big advantage here... Tell them that it's just a couple of hour driving distance if they need to see you in person, or better yet, tell them that your cousin lives in the area near the company and you are staying there... :)

Let me know when your site is up... :)

[petefs]

Good luck, Sho!

On a related note we might get an intern soon... mmmmm, intern... :> I hope he can code, I want to see less text and more pretty pixels on my plate :D

[CyanBlue]

That's bad... sho shinjo is sitting right in the middle of you and me... Probably the same two hour drive applies as well... :(

[boyzdynasty]

Karl, you remind me of Colin.
Hmm...what happen to Colin. I think Annexion scared the poor kid a way. :D :p

You're only 15...i really don't expect you to know much...then again...this 17 year old kid from high school visited one of my programming classes at Temple University last year to talk about his certification in MSCE and MCSD. :eek:

Anyway, just keep experimenting and learning. If you don't become a better designer...try the development side!!

[petefs]

Yeah, but I probably get paid as much or less than Sho : ) It's only the second year of this startup, you know. I made <way> more in my last job, and I didn't have to pay federal income tax on top of that :b If we could afford another salaried employee I would post a hiring in the employment section in two shakes of a lamb's tail :P

[CyanBlue]

Hehe... I know... I've done that before... At least you have more potential since much of the bubbles are gone... But then, you need to specialize yourself more to compete with lots of other designers/developers... Anyways... Good luck, petefs... :)

[petefs]

Thanks : ) We're not having any problems getting work, it's just a matter of paying off start-up costs before we can afford to expend monthly income on another employee. We've only been in an office for 6 months now...and man, real estate is expensive in the outer banks, especially good office space! Some day we'll hire every badical dude on here, I swear ; )

(can't believe I used badical in a sentence)

[CyanBlue]

Hey, man... That's good one to hear... I am sure you guys will do very good jobs... :)

Dumb Q: Wacha BaDiCaL??? :D

[petefs]

badical is a swearword free bad(butt). but (butt) is a different word ; )

[CyanBlue]

Dang... I think that's way more complicated that the OOP stuff... :D

[petefs]

hahahahaha, it's probably just me overcomplicating things again :D

[Colin Campbell]

Karl, you remind me of Colin.
Hmm...what happen to Colin. I think Annexion scared the poor kid a way. :D :p


:confused:

I'm still here.

Just busy with exams, and I don't use Flash much anymore. Still browse ;)

[CyanBlue]

hahahahaha, it's probably just me overcomplicating things again
I say that's very possible... :)
I'm still here.
Where have you been??? Did your dad ground you or something??? :D Welcome back... ;)

[Colin Campbell]

Where have you been??? Did your dad ground you or something??? :D Welcome back... ;)

My dad is in Newfoundland, the rest of my family will be joining him shortly ;)

Just been busy with work, saying goodbye to friends, and school. I never left, I come here everyday, or at least I try. :)

On topic: basically, to be a good designer, you need to design within your abilities and try to expand them. When you try to design something you're not capable of doing, it will only frustrate you, and uninspire you. As you learn more things, it will come easier to you. What do they always say? Oh yeah, practice practice practice :)

[CyanBlue]

Nice to have you back... :)

[Timmee_3Styler]

*waves* @ Colin, c ya.... your going far away :P

[boyzdynasty]

glad to hear you are still alive.
still stick around...

Speaking of designing...My friends and I team up to do a website...a huge project. Sucky part is...i'm the only designer. *lol*

And one of the member does not do any designing or development...he's a very good marketing/sales guy. Since this is my first real AND paid venture, I hope it goes well.

Have not sort out the contract details...but...the client seems to leap way to high. The first meeting, we wanted to discuss content and what the site is suppose to convey about the organization/business but he keeps talking about stupid gimmicks/widgets. *sigh*

[Cota]

GodBless those damn clients.

[sho shinjo]

If we could afford another salaried employee I would post a hiring in the employment section in two shakes of a lamb's tail :P

And the truth would be I would apply without a second look. I only have three places I would like to move to northern VA(area), NC and SC. And I have found it harder to get into those markets then any where else. Petefs if you are getting paid as much as me I am feeling for you... We are getting raped like a chic on prom night... :(

[spriggan]

On topic: basically, to be a good designer, you need to design within your abilities and try to expand them. When you try to design something you're not capable of doing, it will only frustrate you, and uninspire you. As you learn more things, it will come easier to you. What do they always say? Oh yeah, practice practice practice :)


Tell me about it, I have no artistic abilities at all and I rarely finish projects becasue of how frustrateing it is to allwayse compare your abilities with someone else that's realy good. Sad thing is now all my friends and familiy know I can actualy code flash/php/html ect and want me to do projects and I hate turning them down. They're quite happy that things work the way they want but they usaly just groan (and rightfuly so) when they see my actualy design/layout. Maybe it would help if I had any grasp of color theory. But I can't help if I think bright pink and dark purple go togethor, it's my mothers fault for not putting me in those art classes when I was a kid.