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red penguin
11-05-2001, 07:54 AM
A question raised at flashforward:

Why is the ratio of men to women so out of whack?

So, I'm curious to the ratio here at as.org...

Come on people! I see 15 people have viewed but only two have voted...and I'm one of them!! I guess I should have put other as a choice???

pinkaboo
11-05-2001, 12:48 PM
...and I'm the other. RP, I never knew pushing a button was so difficult before, did you? Or maybe peeps just can't decide which gender they are! (hmm, can I change my mind?!)

K

red penguin
11-05-2001, 01:07 PM
pinky: I knew the other was you...Yeah, I guess they are afraid to admit something...Those little closets must be pretty jammed...

okay, so then I guess my little experiment won't be as informative as I had hoped, but then again, it is only Monday and in the States it's only 9:00 am...

pixelwit
11-05-2001, 05:00 PM
I'm extra manly so I clicked on "Guy" twice. I hope this doesn't throw off your scientific experiment. :-)

-PiXELWiT
http://www.pixelwit.com

kingarturo
11-06-2001, 01:41 PM
Computer Geek = Extra Manly :confused:

Doesn't compute. :p

Peace.

pinkaboo
11-06-2001, 01:45 PM
BTW - How did you submit twice anyway?!
The option to click is removed once you have voted. :confused:

K

20 Ton Squirrel
11-06-2001, 03:37 PM
I work for a major market research firm... we skew our demographics 60/40 for the lack of male respondants to our surveys. This is just 'cuz women tend to be more thorough and correct when filling out stuff like a questionaire. Plus, as an added bonus, women tend to SEND THE DERN THING BACK once they fill it out...

The actual population isn't so skewed as much as the representation of our respective genders in a given environment. Imagine how one would have to skew demos to get a good representation of gender on online environments such as forums or MU*s!

Let's face it - even if the person SAYS (s)he is a girl, the truth is (s)he probably ISN'T (cept for Pink, I trust her). So much for those torrid internet affairs and long hours of textsex! OH THE HUMANITY!!!

How many of you posers out there feel all dirty now?!

*CACKLE*

red penguin
11-06-2001, 04:18 PM
The question came about while attending a lecture and I noticed that this particular one was more on the creative side, if you will. There had been more females in the audience than before. Then, as the geeks we all are, we began discussing it and voila!

20 Ton Squirrel: I never did actually get to wish you a happy birthday!!

Did you get what you wanted? Good to see you back in good form...

pixelwit
11-06-2001, 04:23 PM
This is how extra manliness and geekyness "compute".

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// Set some variables
this.Pixelwit._manliness = 2;
this.Pixelwit._geekyness = .5;
//
// for the following I will use King Arturo as an example
// though it's in no way meant to reflect poorly upon his
// manhood or his geekyness
this.KingArturo._manliness = 1;
this.KingArturo._geekyness = 1;
//
//
// The logic
function date (Man1, Man2) {
if (Female._desire == true) {
if (Man1._manliness>Man2._manliness) {
Female.gotoAndPlay(Math.ceil(Man1.length));
} else {
Female.gotoAndPlay(Math.ceil(Man2.length));
}
} else if (Female._desire == false && Female._wit == true) {
if (Man1._geekyness>Man2._geekyness) {
Female.gotoAndStop(Man1._quality);
} else {
Female.gotoAndStop(Man2._quality);
}
}
}
//
//
// The "Action"
date (Pixelwit, KingArturo);
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////


This "computation" should look familiar to you, it's done all the time and really shouldn't surprise you.

As far as voting twice on a poll goes, I think it's just a matter of accepting cookies or not.

-PiXELWiT
http://www.pixelwit.com

red penguin
11-06-2001, 04:33 PM
pixelwit: I see how it all works out but I think you might have forgotten to include the _money property there on the Female and Man Classes!

And how are these variables set?

hehehe

20 Ton Squirrel
11-06-2001, 04:41 PM
My geekiness to manliness ratio is offset by several factors:

I not-so-secretly loathe technology in all forms, despite my expertise.
I do not have a beeper, cellphone, Palm Pilot or other "cool" gadget. Connectivity does, indeed, suck.
I married a FINE babe that other guys drool over... yeah, you WISH you had it this good.
I not-so-secretly loathe humanity in general, so opinions of geekliness are completely irrelevant.


ME? Back in form? I'll beat Vilehelm to the punch on this one, despite my being the optimal weight/build for my optimal height for a caucasian male in his optimal mid-twenties...

"Yeah, I'm in shape all right... ROUND is a shape."

Heheh... yes, I got more than I bargained for my birthday. In addition to Halloween being my birthday, it's also my anniversary... so that in and of itself made the day special.

But, in addition to that, my wife made a beautiful sculpture of a character from my writing. She really outdid herself! I also got Devil May Cry (feh) and Soul Reaver 2 (*DROOL*) for the PS2. Tack on the collector's edition of 3X3 Eyes and I'm one happy squirrel. Yes, my birthday rocked the casssbaaaaaaah. Thanks for asking.

And it's good to be back... in whatever form!

Damn it feels good ta be a gangsta.

pixelwit
11-06-2001, 04:59 PM
Red Penguin, "And how are these variables set? "

By the God object of the Supreme class, using the Math.random function. Oh and environment too.

20 Ton Squirrel, "I not-so-secretly loathe technology in all forms, despite my expertise"

Sorry to hear that Squirrel. When is technology bad? Where do you draw the line? Agriculture? If it weren't for technology you would be an animal scrounging for your next meal without the time to even consider the concepts of good and evil. Technology is no monster, it is the animal/beast which misuses its power you should fear. Sorry for the micro rant, but it's a topic I've discussed before amongst friends.

And now for something completely different...

I think girls/women are afraid to state their sex due to the unwanted attention it might draw from geeks/manly-men.

-PiXELWiT
http://www.pixelwit.com

20 Ton Squirrel
11-06-2001, 05:39 PM
I agree on both counts, Pixelwit. I'm not some environmental nazi, I loathe technology for ecclectic reasons. Not because it ruins the environment, not because it causes harmful radiation that makes my baboon heart convulse...

Rather, I loathe the fact that we rely so heavily upon it. While we have advanced so very far, to sever our ties with the Machine would be suicide for Humanity. I resent it for that. Embracing any one doctrine completely invites stagnation of the soul.

I drive to my cushy corporate job every day in my Ford Taurus. I waste 200+ pages a week and rarely recycle. I love my job as a techie database guru. I love working in Flash.

I simply understand that these things we surround ourselves with are mearely illusion. They won't lead me towards enlightenment. But then again, they don't break my leg either (when used properly) and they can be pretty damn amusing!

Now excuse me, I have to go play Soul Reaver 2. *snicker*

As for the refusal to admit being a woman, I'd totally agree there. My wife and several of her friends from across the nation and world (respectively) usually take either genderless or male personas.

My wife was e-stalked by some fellow in Argentina two years ago. If I could reach through the computer and twerk that little fragger's head off... ooooooooh... the violence I would inflict.

It's made her cautious who she corresponds with online in forums, chats, or online games... not that she spends much time online these days ANYWAY, but that's not the point.

Ninety percent of the guys online are lecherous geeks surfing for porn. I'd say a good forty percent of that aforementioned ninety impersonate women online. Virtual transvestites, you know who you are!

We, the noble ten percent remaining, are a rare breed.

Most women don't concern themselves with the pettiness of the internet. They tend to focus on its truest functionality when it comes down to it... online shopping, weather, news, information, etc...

But that's just my opinion, and we all know how much that counts for. *grin*

pixelwit
11-06-2001, 06:12 PM
Squirrel, sounds like Technology is more of a love/hate relationship rather than a general loathing.

Since the women have been slow to respond, I'll ltry to spur their responses with this comment:

"There aren't any women here because (as everyone knows) girls can't do math."

And with that comment I earn the right to click the "Guy" button one more time. Yay testosterone.

-PiXELWiT
http://www.pixelwit.com

For redemptions sake, I sure hope IFZen is female:
http://www.actionscripts.org/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=6329

20 Ton Squirrel
11-06-2001, 06:26 PM
Like many things/people in my life... I love them and yet I keep them at a sword-point. Very few can get past that bit of posturing on my part, no matter how friendly I may seem. Kinda like Buddhism, in a slight respect.

Good topic, though, all the way around.

And Pixie, you get what you asked for with that comment. *grin*

red penguin
11-06-2001, 10:56 PM
I'm glad to have sparked such conversation even though I really wasn't a part of it firsthand!!!

Damn, we should sit down and throw down some beers! You guys are actually provoking thought here and that's not just anything...

Where are the girls?

vilehelm
11-07-2001, 03:59 AM
Maybe they're intimidated by the giant radioactive rodent shooting his mouth off all the time (you can barely understand what he's saying with all of those acorns stuffed in his cheeks)

slinks away...snickering

Dlady
11-08-2001, 12:08 PM
Unfortunately (for me be mighty woman ;-)) we seem to be badly outnumbered by you men.

My company headoffice has 7 men and only 1 female (me). (not inc the receptionist and tea-lady)

Which would not be a bad thing if they were decent to look at, but we are talking about IT here so no such luck. :-)

pinkaboo
11-08-2001, 12:27 PM
Which would not be a bad thing if they were decent to look at, but we are talking about IT here so no such luck. :-)
Tell me about it, no crumpet here either, I'm surrounded by dorky geeks in abundance. It is quite funny though, they all have to wear suits at my company when you just know they want to geek about in jeans and a Star Wars T-shirts.

K

(just thought I'd join in on the gender stereotyping, shame it is all true though. Right I'm off to go do some online shopping xxx)

red penguin
11-08-2001, 02:22 PM
Time for that group photo...

hehehe

20 Ton: You got a puter at the house? You definitely have a love/hate thing going on there...I like it!

20 Ton Squirrel
11-08-2001, 05:28 PM
Admittedly, I do have a computer at home, but I never touch it. There are three reasons for this.

It is broken, the motherboard fried.
It is my wife's computer primarily.
I have a company-provided 500MHz Dell Laptop serves me well. Note my happiness at not being on the bleeding-edge of gigahertz technology.


I really wouldn't consider this a love/hate issue. I have my fare share of technology... a laptop, a good family car, three game systems. I enjoy each because of what they provide me - whether it be entertainment or utilitiarian use.

I simply see these things for what they are - tools. They do not define who or what I am, nor does my existence revolve around them. They could be lost in a fire today and I wouldn't weep (much).

What is important is my family - my son, wife, and my roommate. And my pets, too... even that damn fish.

Everything else is fodder that can be replaced. Everything else is out-of-date and obsolete the moment it was bought. They provide the means to an end and nothing more.

What I hate are the people who can't go to the grocery store or drive across the street without calling up their significant other on the cellphone. I loathe the people who rely on the government to fix their problems. These people who seek this panacea for life's woes in material posession... they are blind and lost.

Now...

Uh...

That's all I gots ta say 'bout that.

vilehelm
11-09-2001, 03:26 AM
Hmm... ok no fat rodent jokes this time...

I think that your actually talking apples and oranges there squirell. The desire to be constantly connected is not necessarillliy (i hate that word i can't spell it) a techno fetish...it's just a desire to stay connected. the technology is secondary in most cases.

Are we too connected? well the technology allows certain behavior that would never have existed before so hopefully we're still learning how to moderate.

at the same time it really is helpful to have a phone around. i had a friend who had a heart attack last weekend and i'd say the cell phone saved his life(that and a nearby doctor who performed cpr on him for 10 minutes till the EMTs came) a real wake up call (no pun intended). life is fleeting.

by the way I have no idea why there aren't more women in flash/computers etc... (if that's actually the case). art school was a pretty even mix and the computer classes (we were all working Mac Centriss) where even.

All of the women IT persons at my job are Mac specialists...wonder if that means anything? All of the guy It persons are PC and Linux (and one Notes guy who is really weird).

pixelwit
11-09-2001, 04:25 AM
Hey squirrel, I'm not sure, but I think your confusing a love of material goods with a love of convenience. Everyone wants convenience/tech yet not everyone can afford it. As with all "haves" and "havenots" elitism/materialism ensues. You probably just don't like people in general, not necessarily their technology. Just a guess.

For the record, I am barely "connected". The limit of my tech is a corded telephone and a plain Jane computer with a 56k connection. Much more utilitarian than most I suppose, perhaps even more like a chick than a guy. Crap! There goes one of my manliness points!

-PiXELWiT
http://www.pixelwut.com

Dlady
11-09-2001, 08:32 AM
I hate to take things too seriously but a reality check here guys.
I live in a country where a lot of people don't have access to a phone or even running water. Where just over 2 weeks ago 6 men seemed to think it was ok to rape a 9 month old baby (apparently this was in hope that it would cure them of aids).
Ok maybe I'm a bit sensitive since I'm pregnant but I think most of us forget how lucky we are (this includes me). But I guess I'm digressing, my point in all my ramblings here is that maybe we should be thankful for all the stuff we do have.
Even for the technology most of us hate, and I think most "techies" out there secretly loathe technology :-)

Ok now that I've depressed everyone go out and enjoy the weekend.

Damn I sounded like someone's mother.

pixelwit
11-09-2001, 09:04 AM
I like technology. It keeps me from having to eat grubs or slaughter my own food. It sucks the poop right out of my house. It's helped keep a large majority of my relatives alive and healthy. It's allowed me leisures and conveniences never imagined decades or centuries ago.

High-tech is still fairly new. Whether it benefits man or not depends on mans "nature" rather than the actual "technology".

Blah blah blah...

-PiXELWiT
http://www.pixelwit.com

All I want is MORE.

Ricod
11-09-2001, 09:53 AM
What's going on here ? Is this one of those gender war things ? You'd think that with the only species on the planet where both sexes are capable of the same tasks or (with a little help of technology) overcome the minor factors (u know, like getting babies (usually a sex thing) without a member of the other sex)

Ah, at least this isn't one of thos "Well this gender is superior because of blah, blah blah"

Fact remains that even though we've ushered into the 21st century women are still treated differently. Especially on the workfloor. When a women is intelligent they say she's a bitch. When she's not, she's a bimbo. Never occurs to those guys that all that stuff is relative ... Because absolutely, she's a woman. Nothing more, nothing less. As for us guys, absolutely speaking, we're just men.

And one more thing : Claiming you're 'extra manly', Da MAN, Da BOMB, or whatever usually means you're compensating :p .
Anyone who's actually THAT doesn't need to say so. We'll know.

As for the technology thing : we HAVE to rely on them BECAUSE we're so flawed.

And Dlady ... shocking story ... makes u wonder if we're doing the right thing placing more people in this universe. But I'm sure your little one won't turn out to be all that bad. U sound smart enough.

Speaking of enough ... why aren't there any being-a-parent classes ? OOPPSSS ... I'm drifting off here ...

Dlady
11-09-2001, 10:29 AM
Didn't know we were having a gender war. :)

No seriously most people who turn around saying that their sex is better than the other sex is mostly likely just insecure.

So exactly how insecure are most of you men out there? ;-)

Look I like technology, but it has two aspects good and bad. Eg medical saving equipment/knowledge etc which is good. Bad - will I don't think I need to remind everyone of 9/11.
But it depends on the person using it.
Moral discussions on a friday afternoon. Gees.

Parenting Classes- if I get anymore advice I might just shoot someone. (joking)

pinkaboo
11-09-2001, 10:40 AM
And to return to the subject of this thread: the ratio of women to men in this industry:

I had a look at one of those sites where you can find old school friends the other day (friendsreunited (http://www.friendsreunited.co.uk) and had a quick look to see who had registered for my old art college. I like seeing what people have written about what they are up to now, (an attempt to make myself feel better about the paths I have chosen I guess) it's an interesting read! There are a surprising amount of girls/women/ladies/lasses listed who say that they attended art college and then changed career to be IT techies. (IT support, database etc)

vilehelm
11-09-2001, 01:24 PM
Pink did you go to school for Design or Fine Arts? just curious.

Also a last weigh in on technology... in a diversity training session at work i read a stat that .1 % of the world owns a computer.

Talk about reality checks.

pinkaboo
11-09-2001, 01:31 PM
Vilehelm - I did Fine Art at Art College, then went on to do a degree in Communication Media and Design History at University. why?

K

20 Ton Squirrel
11-09-2001, 02:37 PM
Wow... over the course of one evening you all have driven me to question the VERY FOUNDATIONS of my belief system! I was wrong! WRONG, I SAY!

Now... must... get Sprint PCS phone... call wife every five minutes... (ouch, she just bit me).

True, true... apples, oranges, or cashews... tis not the tech that annoys me as much as the rampant abuse of it. THOSE people need a reality check. Maybe I am a bit petty and hypocritical by biting my thumb in their direction. Eh, that's me I suppose.

Admittedly, there are applicable uses for all of those little dohickies... heck, I work at a market research firm for gawd's sake. Want to talk about waste of money?! Heh!

I never brought this up as a "my life sucks more than yours" thing... though you have my most sincere condolences, Dlady. But more importantly congrats on the baby, cuz that certainly does not suck.

Anyhoo... about the reality check... I KNOW how good I've got it. I've fought hard for it. I went from being a young teen parent living off welfare and handouts from family to where I am now. And as bad as it ever got for me, there are a billion people who've suffered worse. I've always lived a charmed life in that respect. I'm thankful every dern day for my amenities and stuff.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on the matter, though. Honestly. It's neat to see how some of us are much deeper thinkers than we first let on (Vile).

And for the record:
Vile: More women work IT for Macs because of their incredible pain tolerance and ability to put up with enormous amounts of bulltripe.

Women just flat out rule. That's why I married the finest one amongst them... despite the fact she bites and (ouch) pinches.

vilehelm
11-09-2001, 02:51 PM
Wait a minute, i smell a new thread here...

are you dissing macs my rotund rodent friend?

Women do rock especially when they are Lawyer girlfriends who get you out of jail...

(damn did i say that out loud! ok ok it was a warrant for running a stop sign and not showing up to pay a $50 ticket, let this be a lesson crime don't pay)

20 Ton Squirrel
11-09-2001, 03:32 PM
Actually, that was good-natured eye-pokie at the Mac. I actually like the things... when they are running MAC software and not trying to emulate Windows. That IE on Mac has caused me much grief...

vilehelm
11-09-2001, 06:11 PM
You mean "I-poke".

Ricod
11-10-2001, 09:24 AM
:mad: Still, Macs don't give as much grieve as windows-based stuff ... period ! I don't know how many times Windows crashed on me (The number of times would be higher than I can store in a 100 terrabyte ASCII textfile !! )

As a matter of fact, more people would be thinkers if they had time for it. And yes, we are lucky to be able to spend time with exciting stuff. Lets face it, we're making things that we enjoy, and probably others too ! I know I'm thankful ! (I spend the thirst 3 years of my life in an orphanage in South-Korea, and then got adopted by excellent parents (they allowed me to discover life by myself, instead of keeping on telling me what I can or can't)

Sure, babies are great. But lets not forget ... even Hitler was a baby once. Even Osama Bin Laden brought joy to others as a baby. I know... Hatred filled people weren't born that way.

The first step to peace is able to let go of your own position. (values, methods, likes and dislikes and other things I can't come up with out of the blue) Hate, egoism, ignorance are all flowing from that ! So, the only conclusion I can draw on that point : 99.9% (rounded down) of the humans are just plain stupid.

Back to the topic ... Pink ... why switch from Art to IT ? Those 2 are so ... distant (although Flash and the web in general bring those two closer together)

Wow ! Do u all realise how many discussions there are on this topic ? Based on the whole "Women = X,X ; Men are X,Y" thing ?
Bottom line ... the differences that really matter are different per person, not per gender (or nationality, skin color, sexual preferences or other exterior factors that may or may not influence the inner aspects) So ... YES THERE OUGHTA BE MORE WOMEN HERE ! But maybe the thing is ... this whole sector isn't attractive to most women. Maybe because of its image, maybe because of its nature. What do u peepz think ? Image or nature ?

vilehelm
11-10-2001, 12:17 PM
I don't think art and IT have to be that far off from one another. There are certainly enough artists out there doing "technology" based art. And all of the IT people at my work place (granted it's an advertising agency) have a creative side to them, some used to be studio production artists. Just depends on the mindset going in I suppose.

Got more to say but I gotta go.

red penguin
11-12-2001, 10:37 AM
Sure, it is from one individual to the next but we tend to generalize and stereo-type, which we all won't admit to, but it happens. "Don't judge a book by it's cover"..."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"...

Don't know if there is relevance to that last one here but something I was discussing with peers as of late.

Ignorance is bliss and as Ricod says, there are plenty of ignorant/stupid people out there. Intolerance breeds ignorance. And vice-versa. This "field", if we can say that, isn't appealing to many people and most of them tend to be woman, I don't ahve an answer for that. I have spend many hours trying to figure out one simple aspect of AS and my wife might stop by the puter and say something like, how can you just sit there and do that?

Patience is a virtue...

She wishes she had this patience, but don't we all? Again, it comes down to the individual and their desire to explore perhaps. I sure don't want to offend any women out there, they are a welcome to this cold and "manly" atmosphere. I like to say that I am in touch with my feminine side but I sure as hell ain't one and we all know that from each gender there is inherently a difference of views. Which, is an asset.

Girls unite and take over!

they can do it, you know!

20 Ton Squirrel
11-12-2001, 11:11 AM
They can do it? Dude... they already have!!!

red penguin
11-12-2001, 02:20 PM
In retrospect, right you are sir...right you are...

Think we're ready for the first woman president?

20 Ton Squirrel
11-12-2001, 02:27 PM
I've never had a problem with women in the workplace or in politics. Nearly all of my superior officers at my company are women and they handle the business just fine.

As far as a President of the US? Sure, just as long as that woman isn't a Clinton.

red penguin
11-12-2001, 02:39 PM
But wouldn't that be the next logical choice???

Interesting...*rubs chin in attempt to look like 'the thinker'*...

Well known international company has offices in NY and in Paris...In the NY office, there are 11 vice-presidents, whereas here in Paris, there are a whopping 2...

There is a different view of women in the workplace from culture to culture. I suppose it stems from the 'macho' attitude of the Latin culture, eh?

Ricod
11-14-2001, 12:49 PM
Its a whole lot of factors. One of 'em being macho-ism. Others inlclude religion, the whole -men were hunters, women were collectors -thing and other environmental influences (like familytradition etc.)

Ofcourse, in England they've had Thatcher as prime minister, the Queen MUM, and we in the netherlands still have a Queen (although royalty no longer has any real political power)

Thing is, people still live with those weird assumptions (like, u oughta fear anything that might be slightly treathening) After all, people kill each other for minor factors (all human beings are 98,5 % identical. Thats right ! There's an overall of 1,5 % difference between us. And on this forum, probably even less ! I say, we'oughta get that below a neglectable number ! (after all we're all Flashers here (and pretty tolerable as far as I've seen it (no body here has called me names yet :) ))

So it'll probably take some time. Maybe the US is ready for a female vice-president ? But what about a colored president ? All presidents were white man ... let's find a black female president and discover that it doesn't make much of a difference ! (wouldn't that prove the differences are neglectable ?)

red penguin
11-14-2001, 02:24 PM
A difference is a difference and as humans, we tend to focus on these differences and either use them to our advantage or, even worse, someone else's dis-advantage...

"Don't judge a book by it's cover"

Where I am living for the moment, unfortunately this is not practiced. Which leads me to believe it is a cultural thing.

And what is the percentage of difference between us and the primates? Or other animals for that matter...or insects, or slugs, or...god help us all...

20 Ton Squirrels !!!

Ricod
11-15-2001, 09:18 AM
yes, culture is often a factor. But as u prove, red penguin, people CAN surpass those influences and make up their own mind (if only more people did it). History ofcourse helps. Here in the Netherlands, people tended to be traders above anything (sorta like Ferengi's :) ) So they got to meet 'foreigners' all the time (except where I grew up. A very small village filled with small minded people.) Some are more annoying though. I was born in South Korea myself (for some reason people always assume your from China, because u look like someone who works at the local chinese restaurant, ofcourse resulting in a lot of 'sambal by' jokes. It was fun the first time, but after 2 million times it starts to become a little old) Others are just honest (they don't call, they ask (even when its stupid like : Do u see less than me ?) I tend to answer that one with "no, just wider, like widescreen tv!" no use in telling them how the eye works, right ? Although if they would know, perhaps they'd understood better ...)

And to think that that's even the case with men-women. (still a ratio off 50-50 in percentage right (although not with babies and elderly people) To be honest : women are a complete mystery to me. I find most of 'em beautiful and intriguing, although their motives are beyond me. I never understand hints and guidelines. What's with the whole toilet thing ? I hardly ever see a girl going alone ... (yes, knowledge is helpful).

Don't worry girls, u won't be less intriguing once I know more about u gals.

Ricod
11-15-2001, 09:18 AM
yes, culture is often a factor. But as u prove, red penguin, people CAN surpass those influences and make up their own mind (if only more people did it). History ofcourse helps. Here in the Netherlands, people tended to be traders above anything (sorta like Ferengi's :) ) So they got to meet 'foreigners' all the time (except where I grew up. A very small village filled with small minded people.) Some are more annoying though. I was born in South Korea myself (for some reason people always assume your from China, because u look like someone who works at the local chinese restaurant, ofcourse resulting in a lot of 'sambal by' jokes. It was fun the first time, but after 2 million times it starts to become a little old) Others are just honest (they don't call, they ask (even when its stupid like : Do u see less than me ?) I tend to answer that one with "no, just wider, like widescreen tv!" no use in telling them how the eye works, right ? Although if they would know, perhaps they'd understood better ...)

And to think that that's even the case with men-women. (still a ratio off 50-50 in percentage right (although not with babies and elderly people) To be honest : women are a complete mystery to me. I find most of 'em beautiful and intriguing, although their motives are beyond me. I never understand hints and guidelines. What's with the whole toilet thing ? I hardly ever see a girl going alone ... (yes, knowledge is helpful).

Don't worry girls, u won't be less intriguing once I know more about u gals.

What about interspecies relations ? How do squirrle's see us ? Don't we appear alien to u guys ?

20 Ton Squirrel
11-15-2001, 02:05 PM
There was a study recently produced detailing that women can reproduce without men or even artificial insemination. The offspring would invariably be female. Don't ask me any more details on it, it may not even be true cuz I heard it on a talk radio show... but it raises an interesting twist to the thread that I shall now impart unto you.

What if women didn't need men anymore? What if we were obsolete (more than we already are)? Would there be war as often?

No, of course not... because you don't see any Talibettes, do you?

Ricod
11-15-2001, 05:33 PM
Are u sure they were talking about human females ? Sounds too me they were talking about frogs. And the war thing ...

There would definetely be less war. Most women I know can smile at someone they can't stand. Most guys can't.

vilehelm
11-15-2001, 05:54 PM
Are you sure you didn't confuse Jurrasic Park with the news again?

heh heh

20 Ton Squirrel
11-15-2001, 06:06 PM
*sigh* ONCE again you people have completely missed the point! Why do you shamelessly waste my time like this?

Color-coded sarcasm!

I heard the tail end of it on a radio talk show last night on the drive home, I figured it was just a joke with a slightly humorous punchline (hee-hee... "talibettes").

Dlady
11-16-2001, 06:10 AM
Read an interesting article the other week how women don't actually need men anymore. What with artificial insemination and everything. And with the way that the world is changing men are becoming obsolete. Most men don't understand where they fit in the world anymore, especially with this whole sensitivity thing.

Hey don't shoot the messenger. Didn't say I agreed with it, just mentioned I saw it. :D
So 20 T Squirrel might not be totally off his tree.

Ricod
11-16-2001, 08:50 AM
What R U talking about ? Some women will still need us ! People need to compare. Afterall : "How do u recognize the dark, without light to compare it too ?" ans so on. Thing is, for reproducing, we guys may be obsolete, but for the whole intercourse thing, lotsa women still prefer men. Why else do they keep up with us for so many millenia ? Think about it ! Anyway ... where R the gals anyway ? Haven't heard off 'em here for quite some time ...

20 Ton Squirrel
11-16-2001, 02:28 PM
I don't necessarily compare women and men as polar opposites like light and dark. We are different facets of humanity. I don't think that society would properly function as it is today without the both of our genders contributing.

That's not to say the concept of one without the other is impossible, just not probable or viable in today's mainstream society.

Hell, gender in general has been obsolete for quite some time. With the fine art of cloning and such, your sex won't mean a thing. Maybe we will become some androgenous creature in the distant future... or worse... completely without gender. Move over paramecium, here we come! Just like Marylin Manson!!!

Ricod
11-16-2001, 02:44 PM
That would ruin the "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" business ! And its merchandize !

(think of all the t-shirts and bumperstickers we would loose !)

I wouldn't CLAIM that women and men R actually that different (c my previous posts) I was just being sarcastic ... :( nobody understands me ...

But what about our identities ? They would surely change ...

20 Ton Squirrel
11-16-2001, 03:11 PM
Don't take it too bad, Rico... I'm misunderstood and downtrodden as well. I thought about color coding all my sarcastic wit just so people would KNOW it's not serious... but then who would laugh? That's right, keep 'em guessing.

I've glanced over that Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus" stuff. It has a lot of merit to it, to be honest, and I tend not to buy into those self-help section philosophies.

The psyches of women and men truly set us apart. A woman's priorities are on a totally different beam than a man's. But, ultimately, I feel that both genders have the same goal in mind... just very different ways of going about it. Men just tend to be more self-serving in the process of getting there.

So, in that light, our identities are distinctly defined by our gender, if nothing else due to the different hormones. And you can't discount the social stigma that society places on both genders... there's a great deal of pressure out there!

vilehelm
11-17-2001, 03:16 AM
Ok i'm gonna open up another big can of mimes...

How does masculinity and feminity fit into all of the mars venus stuff? I get what it's talking about but it's assuming that there's an essentialized version of what a man and a woman are and as we know (marilyn manson, chyna, richard simmons ok that's a cheap shot, sorry) there's all types who gender wise are one way but go all over the place in others and i'm not really talking abouyt sexuality here although that could ceratinly be thrown into the mix.

Or is masculinity et. al. more controlled and actually part of image? i don't think so completely.

Ricod
11-19-2001, 08:33 AM
It used to be solely a hormone thing, but nowadays as we become more in control of our own wishes and curiosity we tend to let go off it. I'm not really sure yet wether or not its a good thing. It has both benefits as downsides. Personally I tend to like the feminine women. PLZ note there's a difference between feminine and feminism. A feminine woman can still be a feminist.

Weird thing is, I don't like over-masculine guys. I could never be friends with someone who goes like : "Yeah, u know, I'm da man ! Da bomb !" etc. In my view they are losers who probably got picked on either at school or mistreated by their parents or something and now they have to overcompensate. Weird that that bothers me, cuz when a woman talks like a beach bunny I tend to consider it cute ...

My hormones must be betraying my wishes to be considerate towards everyone. I know ! I'm weak ! WEAK ! But that's okay since I'm not leading anything, let along a country...

20 Ton Squirrel
11-19-2001, 03:03 PM
Ah gender role... this has become more of a fad than something you'd look up in a DSM-V. You've got more gender/sexual stereotypes around these days than you could shake a stick at.

I'm all for freedom of preference and such, whatever sharpens yer sword. But these militant types... oy, they gotta go.

And people like Manson need to be at the front of the firing squad. Mechanical Animals... feh! He was chased off stage here in Houston for a reason - HE SUCKS!

Ricod
11-19-2001, 06:06 PM
DSM-V ? WAZZIZDAZZ ? Also, whats with the whole Marilyn Manson thing ? I don't actually know who that is, only that he calls himself the anti-christ (I'm not catholic, but if there's gonna be an anti-christ I'm sure he/she won't be a rock'star')

I didn't knew u houstan squirrle's were so ... musically agressive.
Also, what do flashers nowadays listen to anyway ? I'm a little out of it ... I happen to prefer Queen over anything, although a good Prodigy is often welcomed, too.

To come back to the poll : I wonder if there's a difference in musical tastes between men-women.

20 Ton Squirrel
11-19-2001, 09:59 PM
The DSM is a medical dictionary of psychology that details all sorts of disorders, neurosis, and psychosis. My ma is a psychologist, so I grew up reading that stuff. Had m'self pegged as a psychotic schisophrenic by age 13! *twitch, twitch* Pardon, time for my medies.

Manson started out okay, but he's so damn full of himself... plus I hate his "message", despite the excuse he gave about Mechanical Animals being a parody of himself or whatever. Give me Numan any day. Give me Trent Reznor or Kurt Harland. Manson pales in comparison (and that's sad... just look at how pale that cracker is).

Houstonian ANYTHINGS are particularly aggressive about their music - be it metal, rock, blues, county, or... *shudder* tejano. I say tastes amongst us Flashers are quite varied. I like everything from Bach to Bauhaus... Fear Factory, Bamboo Crisis, Metallica, Vivaldi, Project Pitchfork, Pitchshifter, Rammstein, Information Society, Enya, Clannad, Hate Department, Gary Numan, Enigma, Faith No More... gah... I could go on for pages. I have well over a gig worth of MP3's on my drive (no pirating) that total up to 31 hours of total play time. I just can't work without my music!!!

I think that music, like art, is an individualistic taste that has very subtle - if any at all - influence from gender... at least in our adult years. Teens and younguns seem to be more gender-oriented for stuff like boy bands or Brittney Spears. My wife breaks the mold... she loves Rob Zombie and Type O Negative more than I do!

Ricod
11-20-2001, 11:09 AM
Well, I guess we're all a bit schiso ... Afterall, we're all someone else by name here on the ' net. But tell me, except for the 20 ton squirrel and your main human character (the one thats also married to your wife). Are there any other other persona in there ? Also, maybe YOU (da squirrel) just like metal, while yer other selfs prefer other music (m'be even a kiddo who prefers Br**censored**ears ?)

I am still me here, after all Rico D is the name my friends and ex-classmates use. (actually everybody, except my family)

Speaking of gender-music ... just looking at it : It's preety much the same thing. There's no REAL difference between a Spice Girls and a Take That (or more recently, a Atomic Kitten and a West Life) ... basically just the gender of the ' performers' . Just a bunch of not-bad looking teenagers of the same gender that hop around without REALLY dancing ... (basically its just because of the editors that it appears as if they're dancing)